'deprogramming'

[laptop]

This charge equally applies to those creating the narrative of the "official line" on events.

And the classic way that conspiranoids muddy the waters is by persuading people who are merely questioning that all those who oppose them are subscribers to "the official line". Which I am not, as you know. What I am angry about is reasoned opposition being crowded out by ranting which has little more content than "listen to meeeee!".

Really effective conspiranoids, too, do better in the US than the UK as an unfortunate side-effect of the cultural status of "free speech" there.

I'm thinking of AIDS deniers like ... forgot the name I wanted, but Mullis will do - getting equal time with the whole of the rest of relevant science, and "climate change is a conspiracy to attack the Amerikan Way of Life" loons like S. Fred Singer claiming equal time with the whole of the rest of relevant science.

 

[Loki]

I got bored of the slanging match a long time ago.

They're not slanging matches - they're threads started by DrJ stating bizzare suppositions as fact - eg. "Huntley is innocent!", "American Airlines flights did not exist!" and then when other posters go and do his research for him and prove him embarrasingly wrong, he runs away.

It's kind of tedious. But if no-one challenged him, some might think he's telling the truth.

 

[laptop]

Is it a prerequisite of Dr Jazzz's proposal that it be an uninterrupted spiel?

You were proposing the uninterrupted spiel.

The original proposal was that DrJ do the interviews.

Which would be a bit like having William Hague interview Michael Howard, or (shudder) Dawn Primarolo / Tony Blair.

 

[easy g]

Originally Posted by Wess
"On every single one of those websites, (which BTW, Dr. J actually uses for sources) has the same "the Jews own all the Banks" rubbish"

which websites, there has only been one listed on this thread...sounds like you're working from some sort of list if "every single one of them" has that same view...

be nice to see some evidence of this very particular statement

well well...seems Wess has chosen to ignore backing up his/her comments once again....

and not the first time....the lieing troublemaking hit and runner

 

[MysteryGuest]

But are you sure a nobel prize means 'very little'?

In terms of ability to work out what's going on in the world at large, it means fuck all.

 

[laptop]

Originally Posted by Wess
"On every single one of those websites, (which BTW, Dr. J actually uses for sources) has the same "the Jews own all the Banks" rubbish"

Put it this way. I have yet to come across a website that makes "the money system" argument, in the manner referred to way up the thread, that doesn't have that agenda, more or less thinly disguised.

Your demanding an enumeration of all sites that put a viewpoint is a silly move, anyway.

 

[easy g]

well Wess said every single one of those websites......I want to know what this list of websites Wess is talking about.....


furthermore...this is typical of the way Wess seems to do things...hit and run bullshit

anyway...off to bed

 

[MysteryGuest]

furthermore...this is typical of the way Wess seems to do things...hit and run bullshit

anyway...off to bed

Oh, how ironic! The old "I'm off to bed" gambit!

 

[laptop]

well Wess said every single one of those websites......I want to know what this list of websites Wess is talking about.....

I think you might want to change your tagline.

If you're that interested, start here:

www.google.com/search?q=reserve+bank+conspiracy

and work outward. Warning: 369,000 hits approx and there's more.

 

[Jazzz]

In terms of ability to work out what's going on in the world at large, it means fuck all.

No but it surely qualifies someone to talk about the science behind HIV and AIDS, when it was for inventing the PCR test used to diagnose the condition

 

[Masseuse]

And the classic way that conspiranoids muddy the waters is by persuading people who are merely questioning that all those who oppose them are subscribers to "the official line". Which I am not, as you know. What I am angry about is reasoned opposition being crowded out by ranting which has little more content than "listen to meeeee!".

Well you raise an interesting point there - I agree that my use of the "official line" is an over-generalisation, a lumping together of possibly many differing views under a homogenous umbrella. Yeah, you see where I'm going. Both labels are problematic, obviously - and both lend themselves to an easy blanket dismissal of views or theories which do not fit that particular mould. Which gets us nowhere in the end.

I can understand editor wanting to keep intact some sort of image he has of the site - it is his baby and his vision after all. But I didn't think urban was so fragile that it's reputation could be felled by one interview - and I wasn't proposing an uninterrupted spiel btw, I've just been throwing a few ideas around to try and avoid the usual dull as fuck stalemate on this whole subject. But clearly the egos are still at play here - each staunchly insistent that they are on the right side.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

One of the reasons Bollocks Conspiracy Threads are so unpopular with the mods here is that, no matter how much they are argued against, they attract nutjobs. Part of the point of being nasty about them is to make it quite clear that, on serious issues at least, rational argument is kind of expected.

Counter-argument is better than no counter-argument but I'm afraid that arbitrary binning is the only thing that really stops the attractive process. Somebody who's already inclined to believe or promote the irrational arguments involved will take their sheer presence as a sign of tolerance and a reinforcement. I've seen this on other sites and I've seen this on Urban. The ranting conspiranoid sign-up rate has been considerably reduced since we started getting tough, just like arbitrarily banning anti-semites means we get very few here, or, at worst, very few who feel free to state their views openly.

I do a lot of WorldPol modding (for anybody who's not familiar) and I have to say that the idea of putting something conspiracy-friendly out under the Urban75 banner makes me go "eeeecccccchhhhhhhhNO". None of the things I've read here give me any confidence that such a programme would be a balanced debate on the matter, quite the opposite. Even having posters asking questions after the fact isn't good enough - no offence, but while it may be easy to google up contradictions in somebody's argument when you're debating it online, I don't think many people here would have everything memorised, and we seem to be talking pro or pro-am people here who do this sort of thing all the time.

It's basically getting round the WorldPol moderating policy by the back door. BCT threads aren't debates, they're advertising; this would manage to associate them with Urban75 without reference to Urban75.

 

[rorymac]

imo this is exactly what would happen. We've already had DrJ making much of somebody-or-other's "Nobel Prize" credentials on this thread. Which to me actually means very little. One thing I learnt years ago is that scientists, or (*gasp*) politicians, or military heads (no gasp there) can also hold particularly "unconventional" views. It's cos they're humans innit?

Is it?
I mean is it really sir .. hmmm ??
((guesty))

Also and unrelated to guesty .. hee hee xxxxx

The accusation of anti semitism against David Icke is clearly incorrect no matter how low one's opinion of him may be IMO

Sometimes people think they know it fuckin all and they do for a while but then all of a sudden they fuckin don't

Hate the bloke if you feel so offended etc but don't be using cheap tabloid type smears is my opinion

 

[laptop]

each staunchly insistent that they are on the right side.

But the whole point of rational argument is that it's a method for finding out when I'm wrong.

And what FridgeMagnet said

 

[Jazzz]

Anyway... I suppose I better spill the beans, so people understand why a series no-one gave two monkeys about suddenly became such a hot topic. I'll edit the title post to show the other confirmed guest so far.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You must be fucking joking. I could have guessed, but I wouldn't have thought you would even bother.

You timewasting cunt.

(I doubt that he confirmed anyway of course. He's a busy man.)

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

if conspiracy theroys get this much attention i'm going to have to iclude a section on them to my anime show

the twin towers were actully destroyed by godzilla the whole terrorist thing is a cover up by the japanese goverment

 

[laptop]

[Icke] began to dress only in turquoise and later maintained that the world was ruled by a secret group called "The Elite", or "Illuminati", which he linked to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, an anti-Semitic tract.
...
Icke has further claimed that a small group of Jews, particularly the Rothschild family, financed Adolf Hitler and supported the Holocaust. These claims have led to his speaking tours attracting the interest of British neo-Nazis, particularly Combat 18, as well as facing opposition from Jewish groups and anti-racism activists. In response to these allegations, Icke has strongly denied that he is an anti-Semite, and has stressed his belief that the Illuminati, which, he says, includes the Rothschild family, are lizards, not Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Icke

Yeah, right. This will be the Homer-like storytelling mastery that some other fruitloop was going on about on one of the bombing threads, then?

And it's not full moon until Wednesday!

 

[flimsier]

Fuck me, he's lost it.

 

[Masseuse]

But the whole point of rational argument is that it's a method for finding out when I'm wrong.

And what FridgeMagnet said

I'm quite aware of what rational argument means.

But while you may be swanning around virtuously trying to find out where you have gone wrong, I'm sure you will agree that a great many people simply pick out the bits of evidence that suit their argument/position/belief system and use it to construct a defence of said argument. The majority of people are not trying to find out when they are wrong but trying to prove they are right. This dynamic applies to all positions.

And while rational, reasoned argument can uncover truths it can also propogate lies.

It entirely depends upon the skill and motivation of those doing the arguing.

 

[Jazzz]

Yeah, right. This will be the Homer-like storytelling mastery that some other fruitloop was going on about on one of the bombing threads, then?

And it's not full moon until Wednesday!

yes, when Icke says lizard he means... lizard eek:!). His theory is that the world is run by some 13 bloodlines and what races they may be held to be part of (they vary) is neither here nor there. He holds the mass of Jewish people to be a victim of this conspiracy, just as all the other races. He is not racist at all, quite the opposite, and you will be sure of that should you hear him.

 

[laptop]

I'm quite aware of what rational argument means.

Just in case

And while rational, reasoned argument can uncover truths it can also propagate lies.

At least when that happens you can answer it in sensible terms, because there's a logical structure to get hold of.

Unlike this:

A RARE PUBLIC TALK BY DAVID ICKE, HIS LAST SCHEDULED 'LIVE' PRESENTATION UNTIL AT LEAST 2006, IS HAPPENING AT MOUNT SHASTA, NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, ON THE WEEKEND OF JULY 23RD

It could well be the last time he will present in this form as he explores other ways to communicate the information to an ever-wider audience...

​

Only $65! Last chance to see him in this form! Next time, he peels off his human veneer to reveal...

A fish? An amphibian? A L...?

Oh, and his site is marketing

+++ NEW +++
MONATOMIC GOLD IN AN ORGANIC SUPERFOOD​

- well-known flaky scam, as written up in New Scientist - but first time I've seen a metal actually claimed as organic...

 

[rorymac]

He's a bloody wufter

 

[editor]

Icke has further claimed that a small group of Jews, particularly the Rothschild family, financed Adolf Hitler and supported the Holocaust. These claims have led to his speaking tours attracting the interest of British neo-Nazis, particularly Combat 18, as well as facing opposition from Jewish groups and anti-racism activists.

Do people understand now why I'm vehemently opposed to having an unchallenged, uncritical half hour love-in between DrJ and David fucking Icke appearing as something endorsed by urban75?

It would be like sending out a personalised invite to every fruitloop, anti-Semite, racist and loonspud on the net.

Look! High profile, BBC-recognised, open popular site here!!!!

 

[rorymac]

A load of bollocks Editor .. think before you post IMO
Well it is !

 

[Masseuse]

How many urbanites does it take to post up mad David Icke theories and screw in a lizard?

I've read a few Icke books because I'm fascinated by the fella. I really 100% do not believe he is anti-semitic. He's a total hippy in fact, harping on about love all the time and how we should all love one another regardless of race or creed. I find it difficult to see how he can hold that view and propogate racist ideas.

At least when that happens you can answer it in sensible terms, because there's a logical structure to get hold of.

A logical structure can still lead, logically, to the wrong answer. Sorry if I sound pedantic, or seem to be picking holes needlessly, but I really think it is these suppositions, these unquestioned assumptions which prevent us from pushing at the boundaries of conventional thought. And it is only by pushing at these boundaries that new truths emerge and old paradigms fall.

 

[editor]

A load of bollocks Editor .. think before you post IMO
Well it is !

Thanks for sharing your considered opinion, what with you having so much experience of running a board and all that.

Take a leisurely stroll around Usenet and get back to me.

 

[rorymac]

Please give me a little credit .. fuckin please
Your post is rubbish

 

[laptop]

I find it difficult to see how he can hold that view and propogate racist ideas.

Precisely by defining other races, or one other race, as not human.

Or is he into lizard love ?

A logical structure can still lead, logically, to the wrong answer. Sorry if I sound pedantic, or seem to be picking holes needlessly, but I really think it is these suppositions, these unquestioned assumptions which prevent us from pushing at the boundaries of conventional thought. And it is only by pushing at these boundaries that new truths emerge and old paradigms fall.

My head hurts. I'll go read some Baudrillard and get back to you

 

[Larry O'Hara]

a surprise (not)

David Icke eh--somebody who (I am proud to say) I helped get thrown out of the Green Party for anti-semitism 10 years ago. And before you wheedle & whine, I have attended two of his lectures, and read his books. Though not the chapter one publisher excluded because of Holocaust denial. I have even written about Icke ('David Icke, Time for the Hard Truth' Greenline 1995) & can understand only too well why he does not want to be challenged. I vividly remember the first time I heard him speak, alerted by a colleague who had informed me of his trajectory. When I heard all the usual names trotted our--Schiff, Warburg, Rothschild, Trotsky etc, I became increasingly perturbed. This is a man who takes the Tsarist police forgery the Protocols of the Elders of Zion seriously, FFS. As it happens, I don't know what kind of 'Doctor' you are, Dr Jazz, but my PhD is in modern fascism, and in my 'professional opinion' Icke is an anti-semite--the humans with most intimate connection to the Lizards as a group are Jewish. That Icke has been fawningly interviewed by the BBC (& Daily Telegraph too etc.) does not make him any less pernicious. It doesn't even matter whether he really believes this garbage--like a man shouting fire in a crowded cinema, at best he doesn't care for the atavistic consequences of the pre-existing conspiracy theories he recycles for commercial gain.

I'll give you this--Icke is indeed of the highest calibre in his field: the supreme charlatan's charlatan...