You have not answered a single point I have raised.
All you have done is rave on about how bad it is to support a TORY.
That isn't actually answering points.
David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties
- Thread starter magneze
- Start date
You have not answered a single point I have raised.
All you have done is rave on about how bad it is to support a TORY.
That isn't actually answering points.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So help people set fire to David Davis then. But no...
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I've answered every single one of them, and oddly enough thay all tend towards VOTE TORY on your part. You can disagree with the reasoning (and yours amounts to 'we must all be together'- no examination of what 'we' or 'together' means).
So where was the answer to the point raised.....oh well never mind, like every single one of your other posts you have utterly failed to answer the point of the post.
Opting instead for some smug reply as if you somehow have the emperor's new clothes and we are all too silly to see it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm just a troll dravid. Nothing to see here.
The second time you have resorted to lying about what I have said.
So I was right, you are just being a troll. Boring Sunday?
Dravinion, exactly. i know it's a safe seat. As things stand, he's the only proper candidate anyway. Even just from a tactical point of view. The civil liberties campaign doesn't need to be hitched to Davis's campaign. The real value of this bielection is the attention it will get. The opportunity to present arguments and challenges against yes, 42 days but also the wider stuff. It's not about getting one guy back into parlament. Davis will do that himself. That's why IMO, you don't need to discredit, muddy what ever, the existing opposition to what's going on.
Badger Kitten
oof
You miss my point. I want this to WIN.
The end game is: civil liberties. Big enough deal to fight hard for.
If a senior politician wants to throw everything at it, then that is a GOOD THING.
Even if - especially if - they are the Shadow Home Secretary. And a TORY.
There are plenty of nice, committed civil liberties supporters, and what success have they had in derailing this train so far?
Now an insider - one of THEM - is challenging THEM.
A TORY is taking on Labour and the Tories.
We've just gone up a gear, and it might not be so pure and so noble but it could well be a damn sight more effective than everythinG tried so far - which DID NOT STOP THE NON-TORIES VOTING TO SHRED HABEAS CORPUS, HOLD SECRET INQUESTS AND INCREASE STATE POWER.
The end game is: civil liberties. Big enough deal to fight hard for.
If a senior politician wants to throw everything at it, then that is a GOOD THING.
Even if - especially if - they are the Shadow Home Secretary. And a TORY.
There are plenty of nice, committed civil liberties supporters, and what success have they had in derailing this train so far?
Now an insider - one of THEM - is challenging THEM.
A TORY is taking on Labour and the Tories.
We've just gone up a gear, and it might not be so pure and so noble but it could well be a damn sight more effective than everythinG tried so far - which DID NOT STOP THE NON-TORIES VOTING TO SHRED HABEAS CORPUS, HOLD SECRET INQUESTS AND INCREASE STATE POWER.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Guess who?
If you think i'm a troll then fair enough. There must be a whole load of trolls around all disagreeing with you. That being their defining characteristic and all.
If you think i'm a troll then fair enough. There must be a whole load of trolls around all disagreeing with you. That being their defining characteristic and all.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No he's not. Good god do you realy believe this melodramatic rejected from screen school bilge. A tory politician is manouvering to help his own internal postion and hurt the external enemies. And you can't wait to line up with him.
That's it. It's not an attack on the death star. It's pathetic petty politics as normal.
Badger Kitten
oof
You see what you want to see, if eall you expect to see to you is tribal petty politics, and genuine passion is scripted melodrama then I guess that is what you will see. You are not alone; that is what Westminster sees, what the media see. It's what they know, after all.
If it is as it always is, then it will be as it always is.
If it's something genuinely different, then...what then?
You will have stayed in saying 'TORY TORY TORY' and you will have missed the start of something that is genuinely exciting and motivating the British public, and if that is not politics and democracy in action, then what is?
If it is as it always is, then it will be as it always is.
If it's something genuinely different, then...what then?
You will have stayed in saying 'TORY TORY TORY' and you will have missed the start of something that is genuinely exciting and motivating the British public, and if that is not politics and democracy in action, then what is?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Butchers,
I agree he may be doing this for his own ends, but there is a lot of what he is saying that is correct and should be exposed to a wider audience - this has not happened with 42 days, not happened with ID Cards, not happened with the DNA database, not happened with RIPA, not happened with the Human Rights Act(*), and not happened with CCTV. To borrow Tony Soprano's line, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Just because he opposed repealing s28 (not a unique position in the Tories, or even in the country as a whole) and favours the death penalty in some cases (which could well be the view of a majority in the country), it should not detract from the wider argument on this occasion.
Someone had to stand up and start this off at a high-enough level, and it is a very terrible indictment of the Labour party that it was Davis who did so. On this occasion he should be supported, especially if its against that Sun cretin or a random Labour drone.
* the HRA being one of the more overrated pieces of legislation on the statute book.
I agree he may be doing this for his own ends, but there is a lot of what he is saying that is correct and should be exposed to a wider audience - this has not happened with 42 days, not happened with ID Cards, not happened with the DNA database, not happened with RIPA, not happened with the Human Rights Act(*), and not happened with CCTV. To borrow Tony Soprano's line, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Just because he opposed repealing s28 (not a unique position in the Tories, or even in the country as a whole) and favours the death penalty in some cases (which could well be the view of a majority in the country), it should not detract from the wider argument on this occasion.
Someone had to stand up and start this off at a high-enough level, and it is a very terrible indictment of the Labour party that it was Davis who did so. On this occasion he should be supported, especially if its against that Sun cretin or a random Labour drone.
* the HRA being one of the more overrated pieces of legislation on the statute book.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'll have missed nothing other than people being maniplulated by a machine politician and selling the issue they claim to give a shit about down the river. You're already arguing that it should be about insiders not the general populace. So please don't thrown 'democracy' at me. You're the one supporting a 28 days candidate and dismiising those who support real substantial civil rights 'small fry'.
28 days not 42. Got the banner made yet?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Why should he be? Because he's providesd a platform for wider debate? Fine. That exists now then. Use it against him. He's going to win. Put proper civil liberties back on the agenda instead of his opportunistic bollocks. If that's the game then this is exactly the sort of approach that should be supported.
It's not much of an opportunity that he''s opened if the only possible option is supporting him and voting tory against civil liberties.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It is worth remembering that:
i) 28 days has to be renewed every year;
ii) it was a Tory amendment - the alternative was 60 days (or 90, as Labour originally wanted) and there was (at least according to this ), a lot of risk that if 28 days hadnt won, 60 would have;
iii) this was a few months after 7/7, when allegations of being "soft on terror" would have been a lot more damaging.
Badger Kitten
oof
So the abuse starts. Would you be pleased if I was intimidated enough to stop doing what I believe is right?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I don't believe that this is a principled civil libertarian postion - a no vote on both the main bill and the amendment is. That would given him some credibility. When set in the context of his vote against equal gay rights (and not s28 alone) and other things (membership of the tory party, being shadow home sec) , it's fair to say that i'm not convinced.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What abuse BK?
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
No, it would have lead to this country having 60, or even 90, days detention for terrorist suspects without charge.
As for whether this is principled civil libertarianism - it may not be, but I would much rather have someone taking that as a stance that than (as the Government is doing) someone trying to demonstrate how tough they are no terror.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
One vote didn't make it - nothing would have changed if he'd voted against 28 days, except that DD could now pose as a little bit more libertarian than the current record suggests. So, no sorry, red herring.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What abuse BK, i've not given any abuse to you or anyone on this thread. Let alone sought to intimdiate people out of anthing. Pretty low attempt at a slur and on a thread that has been very good mannered.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
He was the Shadow Home Secretary, his vote would have made a difference. In any case, the record of the debate does show that much of his position between then and now is relatively consistent:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2005-11-09b.325.2#g378.1
Badger Kitten
oof
And finishing off with 28 days, which I said I opposed.
So I'm a manipulated person who tells people to support the Conservative party and sells down the river things I only claim to give shit about whilst dismissing those who really care about liberties? Okay, not abuse. You want to give it a name?
Well, I disagree with your position on me. I know what I support and why I support it. And nice campaigns didn't stop the non-Tories voting to increase state power and lock people up without charge and have secret inquests.
I think liberty is more important than party politics and if the (ex)Shadow Home Secretary wants to throw himself into the fray, good.
I understand that you can't support this because you cannot support anything a Tory does ever ( I think that is what you are saying?) but i can break the rules on a single issue and I will. Because I can't sit back and not try and get somewhere. If it fails, well, so has everything else so far.
But my conscience says try.
And there is no other candidate.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Not to the result it wouldn't. How many votes does he get? One, the same as everyone else. And as such an important player he would be aware that hos own vote against would not have made a difference either way. So he either just voted to keep in with the party or voted how he really thought. Either way, no some who you should be tying a pro-civil liberties campaign to. He either doesn't support them or is prepared to sell them out to personal political gain.
The record that i posted up showd him being relatively inconsistent at best.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If it's not abuse, don't call it abuse. Why should i give 'it' a name? A lie?
I think that the tories are seeking to manipulate people like you yes, and i think they're succeeding given that you're today arguing that that one of their candidates should be voted for. I think that doing this is to sell any independent pro-CL campaign down the river - to sell it out to insiders, to politics, to parties. Neither of these are crazy outrageous positions. And neither of them are abusive.
It's madness though, support the very system that you're railing aginst (not the samll fry, they don't count) whilst condemning people who point out that it's the very system that produces the things that that you're railing against.
What on earth is success here anyway - a tory elected. If it's not that, if it's the issue discussed and debated then, it's already happening - you should be attacking DD. You don't need a disclosed candiate to do that. You don't need me to tell you there's anotherr candidate to start pulling apart the lies about DDs and the tories posion on civil liberties. Not supporting them.If it was about civil liberties and civil liberties alone you would be doing that right this minute. Why aren't you?
Badger Kitten
oof
Butchers, you are a ''manipulated person who sells people and liberty down the river and support the Tories for an issue you only claim to give a shit about.''
Do you feel happy reading that? Well, I didn't when you said it about me on a public BB. Because it is not true. I am not a manipulated person who sells her beliefs down the river and only claims to give a shit about things and urges people to vote Tory, any more than you are.
The Shadow Home Secretary has resigned over an issue of civil liberties being sold down the river, and you say, ugh, because they are a Tory. Okay, you made your point about Tories, over and over again.
To me the fact that he is a Tory is less important than he is standing on a CL ticket as a one off to start a debate
The success criteria is the Government - whoever party is in Government - not selling us down the river as fast and shredding liberties, the success criteria is people caring. I have tried to speak out about that in a small way for the last few years. The world is not perfect. I operate within an imperfect world. I can't stand against DD or the Govt. machine; I am small.Someone is standing for CL and I can try and stand with them, for CL. Or I can carry on in the same way as before and reap the same result.
I understand you can't support the Tories full stop. Fine. I can support a Tory supporting civil liberties because I support civil liberties
Do you feel happy reading that? Well, I didn't when you said it about me on a public BB. Because it is not true. I am not a manipulated person who sells her beliefs down the river and only claims to give a shit about things and urges people to vote Tory, any more than you are.
The Shadow Home Secretary has resigned over an issue of civil liberties being sold down the river, and you say, ugh, because they are a Tory. Okay, you made your point about Tories, over and over again.
To me the fact that he is a Tory is less important than he is standing on a CL ticket as a one off to start a debate
The success criteria is the Government - whoever party is in Government - not selling us down the river as fast and shredding liberties, the success criteria is people caring. I have tried to speak out about that in a small way for the last few years. The world is not perfect. I operate within an imperfect world. I can't stand against DD or the Govt. machine; I am small.Someone is standing for CL and I can try and stand with them, for CL. Or I can carry on in the same way as before and reap the same result.
I understand you can't support the Tories full stop. Fine. I can support a Tory supporting civil liberties because I support civil liberties
From The Telegraph
Still think that nothing positive can come of this yet? We haven't even gone a week yet and look at all that's happened.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I couldn't care less if you want to call me that. I'm abit annoyed that you've totally edited made up a new quote though. That's rather naughty and verging on could be called abuse.
No he didn't, he's said that he's resigned on an issue of civil liberties being sold down the river. I don't believe him. No one is obliged to.
It doesn't sound like much of debate where you think the only possible postion is to support him. If anything you should be attacking him for not supporting civil rights. You're not though. You're wasting the opportinity that his manipulation has opened.
So yes, success *is* another tory returned to parliament. The same place who sold the previous rights down the river, and who you were moaning that remained impervious to all other protests. Every single post you make is ful of this sort of basic contradiction.
I don't understand how anyone, who's ever looked at David Davis' record, could possibly think that he is in favour of civil liberties.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Just how naive are you?
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