David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties

[butchersapron]

That's a yes.

 

[xenon]

BK. you do not need to urge or encourage peple to vote for Davis. The speech omitting any such call, sounds an excelent idea though.

Remember, he's come nearer to where you are. Fuck jumping over to where he is on the fringes. It's not necesary and it's self defeating.

 

[Meltingpot]

I think the right way to look at it is that whatever you think of his views in general, he's resigned to fight once more for a seat he would have held anyway until the next general election. Therefore it's obvious that if he gets votes from non-Tory voters it will be because of his stand on this issue. So, there's no need to worry about supporting a Tory.

Maybe if it's too much for non-Tory voters to do that on its own, they could send messages to the local party headquarters making it clear that their votes and hence their support were for this byelection only.

 

[butchersapron]

Or opposing him then. (and your argument as it is not very roubust)

Are you calling on people to VOTE TORY then?

 

[Darios]

DAVID Davis's by-election campaign on the issue of 42 days will be just the first salvo in a major "freedom" campaign led by the former shadow home secretary.

Supporters of the Tory MP said they are gearing up for a relentless campaign on issues such as ID cards and the surveillance state, claiming they want to redraw the Conservatives as the party of liberty, against the authoritarian Labour Party.

Davis will set out his agenda in the coming week as he aims to link the new law allowing the police to detain suspects for 42 days without trial to his wider campaign. One ally said: "David is making it clear that the only truly libertarian party out there is the Conservative Party. That is what the Tory Party was about and should be about for the future."

From The Scotsman

 

[butchersapron]

Repeal 28 days as his banner?

VOTE TORY

 

[Badger Kitten]

is that directed at me?

I am not urging people to 'VOTE TORY'. I am urging people to CARE ABOUT CIVIL LIBERTIES' using a by-election as an excuse to point this out.

'Vote Tory' = support Cameron, join the Conservatives, give money to them, vote for them in elections.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, this is a by-election caused by an MP resigning their job to make a point about civil liberties and what the public think.

To show you support civil liberties, talk about them, write about them, lobby your MP to repeal bad laws and make them an election issue. If you live in this constituency, vote for the civil liberties candidate - this man here. He's not standing on Tory policy, he's standing on the single issue of civil liberties. He also happens to be a Tory.

He is not talking about Tory taxes or policies, he is talking about a single, cross platform issue, of liberty. And of I go up there it will be to make points about civil liberties, not the Tory party.

In fact I don't think I'll be saying 'vote'. Just talking about liberties.

 

[butchersapron]

is that directed at me?

I am not urging people to 'VOTE TORY'. I am urging people to CARE ABOUT CIVIL LIBERTIES' using a by-election as an excuse to point this out.

'Vote Tory' = support Cameron, join the Conservatives, give money to them, vote for them in elections.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, this is a by-election caused by an MP resigning their job to make a point about civil liberties and what the public think.

To show you support civil liberties, talk about them, write about them, lobby your MP to repeal bad laws and make them an election issue. If you live in this constituency, vote for the civil liberties candidate - this man here. He's not standing on Tory policy, he's standing on the single issue of civil liberties. He also happens to be a Tory.

He is not talking about Tory taxes or policies, he is talking about a single, cross platform issue, of liberty. And of I go up there it will be to make points about civil liberties, not the Tory party.

I've asked you, given that you say that you back Davis if you're urging people to vote for him. You are. A vote davis campaign is a VOTE TORY campaign and an anti-civil liberties vote. You're urging people to VOTE TORY/ AGAINST CIVIL LIBERTIES.

 

[butchersapron]

In fact I don't think I'll be saying 'vote'. Just talking about liberties.

Yeah, you'll go up to a constituency and making a speech in support of one candidate and then claiming that you're not urging people to vote for him, to VOTE TORY.

Please, treat people as if they have some intillgence.

 

[Darios]

I've asked you, given that you say that you back Davis if you're urging people to vote for him. You are. A vote davis campaign is a VOTE TORY campaign and an anti-civil liberties vote. You're urging people to VOTE TORY/ AGAINST CIVIL LIBERTIES.

"You're either with us or with the terrorists".

"This is a battle of good versus evil".

 

[Dravinian]

Your obsessive hatred of the Tory party is just blinding you to any reasoning except your own.

And your big response is to continually trumpet VOTE TORY as if somehow that is a devestating insult

I told you that all of this will hurt the conservatives in the short term, hurray, anything that might hamper their chances of winning the next election, which currently stand at about...ohhh roughly a 100% chance of winning.

 

[butchersapron]

"You're either with us or with the terrorists".

"This is a battle of good versus evil".

You're either with the Tory or you're against civil liberties.

You're either with us or with the terrorists.

This is a battle of good versus evil

Easy game to play.

How about just being consistent in your support of civil liberties? Not supporting an anti-gay, pro-death penalty 28 dayer?

 

[butchersapron]

Your obsessive hatred of the Tory party is just blinding you to any reasoning except your own.

And your big response is to continually trumpet VOTE TORY as if somehow that is a devestating insult

I told you that all of this will hurt the conservatives in the short term, hurray, anything that might hamper their chances of winning the next election, which currently stand at about...ohhh roughly a 100% chance of winning.

You think i like LABOUR better than the tories?

It won't hurt the tories in the long run. And if you're prepared to sell what you claim to be a deeply held principle to the LABOUR party then, my dear you just ain't getting it. It's clearly nothing to do with consistent defence of civil liberties for you.

 

[Dravinian]

You think i like LABOUR better than the tories?

It won't hurt the tories in the long run. And if you're prepared to sell what you claim to be a deeply held principle to the LABOUR party then, my dear you just ain't getting it. It's clearly nothing to do with consistent defence of civil liberties for you.

No it isn't.

It is about making the country sit and up and take notice, it is about getting something I do care deeply about on the agenda, in the public eye, in the media in a meaningful and worthy way.

You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Oh it just isn't going far enough, it is backing someone who doesn't believe every single aspect of civil liberties that I do so I will go with my own guy, who only a tiny minority will support, and perhaps some other people will create their own guy and they will have a minority too.

And then government can point out that it is just minority groups complaining.

 

[Dravinian]

I just realised.

You are the Judean People’s Front and I claim my five pounds.

 

[butchersapron]

No it isn't.

It is about making the country sit and up and take notice, it is about getting something I do care deeply about on the agenda, in the public eye, in the media in a meaningful and worthy way.

You are cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Oh it just isn't going far enough, it is backing someone who doesn't believe every single aspect of civil liberties that I do so I will go with my own guy, who only a tiny minority will support, and perhaps some other people will create their own guy and they will have a minority too.

And then government can point out that it is just minority groups complaining.

How is campaigning for a TORY VOTE going to make the issue any less in the public eye. If anything it'll bring more attention as the candidate standing on a pro-civil liberties basis is exposed over and over agian as being nothing of the sort and as an being part of a previous assualt on civil liberties. If the medias all you're tied to why on earth do you imagine that all they acn do is report on DD successfull campaign? Pol'sitical madness and idiocoy. You've already sold the any campaign to the tories.

 

[butchersapron]

I just realised.

You are the Judean People’s Front and I claim my five pounds.

Best ever post on the P&P forums. The funniest at least. Maybe the best post on any forum ever.

 

[Meltingpot]

Or opposing him then. (and your argument as it is not very robust)

Are you calling on people to VOTE TORY then?

I am indeed, "shock horror."

At the moment it's the lesser of two evils. If there were a genuine non-Tory libertarian candidate out there who likewise opposed the 42 day extension I'd say that he or she should be the choice instead, but there isn't at the moment.

I can't understand why the Lib Dems aren't throwing their hat into the ring. They haven't been the same party since Clegg took over,

 

[Badger Kitten]

Butchers, I'm not telling people to vote Tory.

People can make their own minds up about how to vote.

I am there to put a case for civil liberties. The by-election is about letting a case be heard.

If you can't get past your visceral hatred for Tories to see that this is about a fight going on to make parliament realise that people are upset about creeping state authoritarianism and want to do something about it before it is too late...

...And I know enough about how the media and the House works to see that for it to have any effect, it needs to be one of their own challenging the system from within. They can ignore outsiders, men in white suits. They can't ignore this. It's dirty, it's politics, it's bloody effective.

Don't you see how it works? If he wins big, he yokes his party to conserving liberties with the popular mandate to prove it. When he comes back, he's a dangerous back bencher ready to swipe cameron's job unless he holds th eliberty line.

Meanwhile, with their 'the public support authoritarianism' excuse in shreds, labour will have to pull back on their politics of fear doom mongering liberty-trashing ways. Because their spin will have been challenged. The public are running behind Davis - in a way that suggests non-Tories will vote for him in his constituency. The Govt can't hide behind the Sun and say 'people want them locked up/interned/castrated/burned alive as witches'.

BOTH sides will be hauled back a bit from the course which they are pursuing, it will be a rap on the knuckles and a brake and a wake up call.

No 'pure civil liberties' outsider candidate could achieve that.Davis might - he might well fail. When the spin machine kicks in, everything will be thrown at him.

First, ignoring, accusations of mental illness and insane vanity and conspiring for the leadership. And it's been going 3 days.

He has been in the game long enough to take it on; I doubt an outsider could.

This needs a ruthless operator and it needs a cabinet-level figure - Shadow Home Sec - nobody can call him naive, or uninformed, or idealistic.

What's the end game? A big chance to pull the civil liberties debate seriously into the headlights. If it fails, well, so has everything else so far. But it has the chance of success and it is speaking to them in a language they understand and fear.

Worth trying.

 

[Dravinian]

How is campiagning for a TORY VOTE going to make the issue any less in the public eye. If anything it'll bring more attention as the candidate standing on a pro-civil liberties basis is exposed over and over agian as being nothing of the sort and as an being part of a previpus assualt on civil liberties. If the medias all you're tied to why on earth do you imagine that all they an do is report on DD successfull campaign? Poltical madness and idicoy. You've already sold the any campaign to the tories.

Again and again and again I repeat to you, and you just don't read it.

You are being divisive, you will split any support there is and it will end up a minority. Once that happens it is easy to dismiss and ignore.

I said 3 or 4 pages ago, Protests are successful (when peaceful) generally based on how many people turn up.

My way, everyone who is against 42 days, no matter their opinion on the rest of civil liberties can come in support.

Your way, only people who totally agree with all of your views on civil liberties can support you.

Yes you can turn up and just support civil liberties if the Tories irk you that much, but I do believe that campaigning for the vote sends a much stronger message. It says not only is this important enough to protest for, it is important enough to vote for.

 

[butchersapron]

Please, as i said, treat peopleat least as if you're pretending to believe that have some intelligence. A support Davis campaign is a VOTE TORY campaign. Sell it to yourself how you choose. If you're so neutrally pro-civil liberties you wouldn't have a problem supporting a real, non-homophobic non 28 days candidate nstead of dismissing people with those sort of views - views in support of real civil liberties - as 'small fry'.

I've rarely seen such naivety on these forums as on this thread in the last few days. YOu need to get out of the 'blogoshpere.' And all based on David '28 days' Davis being genuine. LIke the other one, you've already sold any independent pro-civil liberty campaign to the parties.

 

[butchersapron]

Again and again and again I repeat to you, and you just don't read it.

You are being divisive, you will split any support there is and it will end up a minority. Once that happens it is easy to dismiss and ignore.

I said 3 or 4 pages ago, Protests are successful (when peaceful) generally based on how many people turn up.

My way, everyone who is against 42 days, no matter their opinion on the rest of civil liberties can come in support.

Your way, only people who totally agree with all of your views on civil liberties can support you.

Yes you can turn up and just support civil liberties if the Tories irk you that much, but I do believe that campaigning for the vote sends a much stronger message. It says not only is this important enough to protest for, it is important enough to vote for.

Npe, i'm for civil liberties, against 28 days. Sorry not voting or urging support for an anti civil liberties candidate -esop not interested ion providing some liberla cover for him. Bluster all about oppourtunity, but you're the one demanding that people missiit by calling on people to VOTE TORY

I'm splitting the Davis vote now What colour is the sky in your world? I'd love to split the Davis vote.

 

[Dravinian]

Ever thought of reading replies with half an open mind, instead of reading them looking for ways you can attack them?

You must notice that there isn't any naivety at all, just a wee bit of desperation, which to be honest is justified given the current climate.

No Davis wouldn't be my first choice, but since he is my only realistic choice I am going to go with that.

You don't want to fine, and when this campaign splutters and dies and we go from 42 to 65 to 90 days you can sit there saying....well atleast i didn't support a TORY....cause apparently we have to capitalise that word.

 

[xenon]

Again and again and again I repeat to you, and you just don't read it.

You are being divisive, you will split any support there is and it will end up a minority. Once that happens it is easy to dismiss and ignore.

I said 3 or 4 pages ago, Protests are successful (when peaceful) generally based on how many people turn up.

My way, everyone who is against 42 days, no matter their opinion on the rest of civil liberties can come in support.

Your way, only people who totally agree with all of your views on civil liberties can support you.

Yes you can turn up and just support civil liberties if the Tories irk you that much, but I do believe that campaigning for the vote sends a much stronger message. It says not only is this important enough to protest for, it is important enough to vote for.

But by urging peple to vote Davis, on his civil liberties ticket. you're urging peple to vote for someone who has other views directly controdictory to the existing anti authoratarianism campaign. Better to use the limelight this election brings, to highlight those wider issues. The ones who don't go along fully with a consensus about what they are, will most likely voting Davis anyway. he doesn't need helping.

 

[Dravinian]

but you're the one demanding that people missiit by calling on people to VOTE TORY

I have demanded nothing of the sort you tool.

I have suggested it and suggested that if people are that bothered then don't do it, but I believe it would be better.

You just looking for any excuse to attack a post, not engaging, not understanding, not reading and giving due consideration.

You just acting like a troll.

 

[Dravinian]

But by urging peple to vote Davis, on his civil liberties ticket. you're urging peple to vote for someone who has other views directly controdictory to the existing anti authoratarianism campaign. Better to use the limelight this election brings, to highlight those wider issues. The ones who don't go along fully with a consensus about what they are, will most likely voting Davis anyway. he doesn't need helping.

But he isn't standing on those views.

He already had his seat in parliment on those views. He resigned and said, this is what i am standing on 42 days.

His other views, the views of the conservative party, don't mean anything in this election.

This isn't like a cheap ploy as a normal election comes up to keep hold of a seat he might lose, it is a safe conservative seat and he was sitting in parliment, in the shadow cabinet.

 

[butchersapron]

Ever thought of reading replies with half an open mind, instead of reading them looking for ways you can attack them?

You must notice that there isn't any naivety at all, just a wee bit of desperation, which to be honest is justified given the current climate.

No Davis wouldn't be my first choice, but since he is my only realistic choice I am going to go with that.

You don't want to fine, and when this campaign splutters and dies and we go from 42 to 65 to 90 days you can sit there saying....well atleast i didn't support a TORY....cause apparently we have to capitalise that word.

I've replied to every single daft idea/reason you've come up with (that everyone has come up with i think). I've given a good reason for why i think that on every point. There is naivity, terrible naivity from you. I've been 100% consistent from post 1 to now. You''re being taken fro a mug, so are others, and you're helpijg to chuck away the opportunity that you argue now exists.

 

[butchersapron]

I have demanded nothing of the sort you tool.

I have suggested it and suggested that if people are that bothered then don't do it, but I believe it would be better.

You just looking for any excuse to attack a post, not engaging, not understanding, not reading and giving due consideration.

You just acting like a troll.

Now we get to the troll accusations Seriously, come the fuck on.

Your post, your suggestion, one which i responded to and have kept to:

I started a thread suggesting that people who are political active, SWP, No2ID cards etc etc should all descend on his constituency.

Make a show of it, show that while the media want to portray it as a political stunt and pointless, as labour and the Lib Dems want to step aside and make it a non-entity election, we should get together and smother his constituency with people just as a show of hands.

Simply as a single banner that everyone can stand behind, what other campaign have we got to get behind? Where else is there some big stand against 42 days? I ain't really seen shit that the media is interested in, and while Gordon 'that fuckwit' Brown wants to bang on about Polls we need to prove that some people in this country do not back him.

We don't want 42 day detention.

Even if we have to go with signs that say:

I can't stand the Conservatives....but I like my civil liberties.

Vote Davis

 

[butchersapron]

But he isn't standing on those views.

He already had his seat in parliment on those views. He resigned and said, this is what i am standing on 42 days.

His other views, the views of the conservative party, don't mean anything in this election.

This isn't like a cheap ploy as a normal election comes up to keep hold of a seat he might lose, it is a safe conservative seat and he was sitting in parliment, in the shadow cabinet.

Of course they bloody do matter. he can't just say forget all that other stuff - esp the stuff explcitlly agianst civil liberties. That was all a joke like. I love that shit now.

 

[Badger Kitten]

I want this issue to blaze, not stutter and go out as everyone pisses on it and acts divisibly.

I want this to have a fighting chance. Desperate times, desperate measures. Polite protests and lobbying and films and op-ed pieces have not worked
.

So why not watch and see if the machine steam-rollers a TORY Shadow Home Secretary who dares challenge it?

It's dirty, it's politics, it might just get further than everything else tried so far.