David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties

[elbows]

The media and politicians are genuinely affronted that someone has broken the rules like this and made them all look like the venal unprincipled lot they are.

Yes that has been fascinating to witness. How dare he resign on a matter of principal! Very telling stuff, there is even a danger that a politician doing something unpredictable might wake some people up.

 

[butchersapron]

David Davis is taking a stand for civil liberties. In that I will support him. This is the best opportunity I've seen to really address the issue in a long long time. Let's not waste it.

No he's not. Why did he vote for 28 days?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Mmmm, and how about I go up there and make a stump speech and say that about 28 days and whatever else comes into my head, eh?

And try and pull the agenda even further back the way I'd like to see it going?
I can sit at home and get cross on the internet or I go and make a stirring speech about liberty being sold down the river and 42 days isn't even the half of it. Rendition flights, control orders, torture, 28 days, the right to protest, ID cards and the DNA database.... I could go on and on.

Or I could hold my nose and go, pooh, a Tory, and type on the internet instead.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Russian Revolution contains a lesson here, does it not? The Bolsheviks took advantage of gains made by the more centrist Mensheviks to push their more radical agenda.

 

[Dravinian]

And i say you're both being a mug and missing an opportunity. He's going to win. He's going to win whatever. So if you're supposed to be doing a pro-civil liberties campaign why not campaign on a genuine pro-civil liberties camapign instead of pretedingthat 28 days mighr justy be part of it (it isn't) -because, if the argument is that he's given us a public opportunity, you're arguing that we should flush it down the bog by supporting him. A wasted opportunity not one maximised.

As Badger said, you can't define civil liberties as only being true civil liberties if we go as far as you.

Most people do believe in holding people without charge, the problem is for how long. Even the most pro-civil liberties person is going to agree to some amount of time for the police to write out reports and interview witnesses.

The point is the more you define civil liberties, the more you will push some of the people who did agree, into not agreeing with you.

A campaign is ALWAYS about weight of numbers. The more the merrier.

The wider you can make the banner, the more people will stand under it.

On a single issue, 42 days, a lot of people will stand under that banner, you bring ID cards into it, you bring 28 days into it, you bring Human Rights into it, you will just push more and more people away and the protest will be a few people in cagols standing around in the rain.

 

[Badger Kitten]

There is an opportunity here.

One to be taken.

 

[butchersapron]

Mmmm, and how about I go up there and make a stump speech and say that about 28 days and whatever else comes into my head, eh?

And try and pull the agenda even further back the way I'd like to see it going?
I can sit at home and get cross on the internet or I go and make a stirring speech about liberty being sold down the river and 42 days isn't even the half of it. Rendition flights, control orders, torture, 28 days, the right to protest, ID cards and the DNA database.... I could go on and on.

Or I could hold my nose and go, pooh, a Tory, and type on the internet instead.

And then call on people to VOTE TORY. And 28 days.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I can sit at home and get cross on the internet or I go and make a stirring speech about liberty being sold down the river and 42 days isn't even the half of it. Rendition flights, control orders, torture, 28 days, the right to protest, ID cards and the DNA database.... I could go on and on.

It would be brilliant if you made that speech. You could do that without endorsing Davis, though.

 

[butchersapron]

There is an opportunity here.

One to be taken.

Which you're arguing should be thrown away in a VOTE TORY campaign instead of a pro-civil liberties campaign.

 

[Darios]

Mmmm, and how about I go up there and make a stump speech and say that about 28 days and whatever else comes into my head, eh?

BK - if you decide to do something like this, please be sure to let those of us in the North know so we can come over and support you.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Being pleased that he's done this isn't the same as supporting him.

I think that's the nub of it. His stand has almost certainly been beneficial to those of us who oppose this monstrous legislation, if only by drawing more people's attention to it and why it's so contentious.

But this shouldn't mean whitewashing Davis. One could also point out that he, like Cameron, is in favour of abolishing the Human Rights Act. Whilst there are obvious limitations to the Act it has at least provided some check on executive power e.g the House of Lords ruling against the indefinite detention of foreign nations. Davis on the other hand apparently sees nothing wrong with sending terrorist suspects to face torture and death abroad in violation of international law!

 

[butchersapron]

As Badger said, you can't define civil liberties as only being true civil liberties if we go as far as you.

Most people do believe in holding people without charge, the problem is for how long. Even the most pro-civil liberties person is going to agree to some amount of time for the police to write out reports and interview witnesses.

The point is the more you define civil liberties, the more you will push some of the people who did agree, into not agreeing with you.

A campaign is ALWAYS about weight of numbers. The more the merrier.

The wider you can make the banner, the more people will stand under it.

On a single issue, 42 days, a lot of people will stand under that banner, you bring ID cards into it, you bring 28 days into it, you bring Human Rights into it, you will just push more and more people away and the protest will be a few people in cagols standing around in the rain.

And the campaign is not the election - if you're confusing or tying the two then you're already wrong and your based perspecrtive is wrong. The elcetion campaign is an opportunity -it doesn't mean supporting a tory. It's a battle in the war. If you tie the campaign to Davis you're undermining it.

 

[Dravinian]

And the campaign is not the election - if you're confusing or tying the two then you're already wrong and your based perspecrtive is wrong. The elcetion campaign is an opportunity -it doesn't mean supporting a tory. It's a battle in the war. If you tie the campaign to Davis you're undermining it.

I gave you my reason for doing it that way.

IF you can't see that making it about votes is the only thing that politicians give a toss about, then I decry your lack of political savvy.

 

[butchersapron]

I gave you my reason for doing it that way.

IF you can't see that making it about votes is the only thing that politicians give a toss about, then I decry your lack of political savvy.

You're being take for a ride by a tory and you're knocking my political savvy. Fair enough.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I gave you my reason for doing it that way.

IF you can't see that making it about votes is the only thing that politicians give a toss about, then I decry your lack of political savvy.

MPs care about being elected. They aren't that bothered what the margin of their victory in the election was - winning by one vote will do.

 

[liampreston]

No Tory is part of any movement I want to be a part of.

Christ you're all talking about supporting a fucking Tory, just as you probably usually support fucking Labour with some equally pathetic excuse for allowing them to get away with this shit.

Telling people to vote tory on this is like telling people to vote Labour to oppose the BNP. It's not even a short term solution.

This by-election has thrown up, for good or ill, such situations though. No-one wants to say it, but if Labour don't stand a candidate as a "pro 42 days" alternative to DD, then the only credible candidate left is - noses held - the Conservative.

Of course it is not ideal, it's nothing close to a fair choice, but this is the way the story has gone I cannot imagine an all-round civil liberties candidate would do wll in this part of comfy East Yorkshire.

 

[xenon]

I gave you my reason for doing it that way.

IF you can't see that making it about votes is the only thing that politicians give a toss about, then I decry your lack of political savvy.

But you don't need to do that. By all means get peple up there, asking awkward questions, making speeches about the wider issues of ID cards etc. But tying the civil liberties campaign to voting Tory is gonna damage that coalition you're in favour of. Davis is likely to win regardless.

It may well be that some or many, individuals who are anti 42 days, are natural Tory voters. Many others amongst them, of course are not. Why pull apart this fragile convergence of opinion by endorsing a Tory candidate. The message will be clear enough to politicians, if that's your goal.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This by-election has thrown up, for good or ill, such situations though. No-one wants to say it, but if Labour don't stand a candidate as a "pro 42 days" alternative to DD, then the only credible candidate left is - noses held - the Conservative.

Of course it is not ideal, it's nothing close to a fair choice, but this is the way the story has gone I cannot imagine an all-round civil liberties candidate would do wll in this part of comfy East Yorkshire.

Are you saying if you were in this constituency, you wouldn't cast your vote for a real civil liberties candidate just because you didn't think they could win?

That's bizarre.

 

[Badger Kitten]

Thank you for saying you will come. OK, I will go and make that speech, and I will preface it by saying, I am not a Conservative, but I am here because this is bigger than party politics. This is about freedom and fear and life and liberty, and it is absolutely important because it affects ALL of us. I expect terrorists to attack our freedoms and to try to make us all live in a permanent state of fearfulness and I expect Parliament to protect our freedoms and what is happening? And ....[long list of terrible things including 28 days].

And so on.

And where do I endorse Davis' as a conservative? Nowhere. I just go on about liberties and not being scared and cherishing freedoms that make us what we are and all that stirring stuff. It is a cross party, above politics thing. And I would suggest to anyone who cares about civil liberties that is is better than we all join together and show the breadth and range of this thing, rather than let it be a Tory thing.

DD does not own civil liberties, nor does Shami, we all do. We can all state our case and make our points and I suggest that the more we do, the better. This is not a consensus thing, it is a coalescing around a big, wide, complex yet simple issue: are we heading for an overly authoritarian state and do we want to pull back and change direction, or are we happy to keep going in the direction we are going?

I think the more people get up there or get active about civil liberties, the better. If it looks like civil liberties is a vote-winner, lo, watch the politicians get with the liberties.

 

[butchersapron]

I support davis, i'll argue for him but DON'T VOTE TORY. Leave it out.

 

[shagnasty]

Any port in a storm.i can't bring myself to vote tory but this time yes with reservations

 

[Badger Kitten]

I support civil liberties, I'll do what I can to raise the issue of how they are being eroded, here is an opportunity to do so, I support this man at this time because he is doing this thing. If you support this man on this issue, vote for him.

He is a Tory. He's not standing on a broad Tory ticket, he is standing on one thing only. This is your opportunity to send a message about your liberties; this is a single issue election.

etc.

Where is 'Vote Tory'? It's a single issue election. It's not about Tory housing policy, or environmental policy or tax policy, it is about civil liberties with a Tory making the point, but it could equally well be an independent or Labour or a Liberal person, because it is SINGLE ISSUE.

 

[xenon]

I support davis, i'll argue for him but DON'T VOTE TORY. Leave it out.

That's not how I read what BK's saying. She as I do, welcome the opportunity he's created. Not back everything he stands for. no one needs to sully themselves by calling for peple to vote Tory.

 

[butchersapron]

"I've met him, I back him, even though he is a Tory."

What's that say to you?

 

[xenon]

I support civil liberties, I'll do what I can to raise the issue of how they are being eroded, here is an opportunity to do so, I support this man at this time because he is doing this thing. If you support this man on this issue, vote for him.

He is a Tory. He's not standing on a broad Tory ticket, he is standing on one thing only. This is your opportunity to send a message about your liberties; this is a single issue election.

etc.

Where is 'Vote Tory'? It's a single issue election. It's not about Tory housing policy, or environmental policy or tax policy, it is about civil liberties with a Tory making the point, but it could equally well be an independent or Labour or a Liberal person, because it is SINGLE ISSUE.

This is where i disagree with you. You don't need to implore peple to vote Tory. In fact I think it's damaging to the wider civil liberties aims.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I support civil liberties, I'll do what I can to raise the issue of how they are being eroded, here is an opportunity to do so, I support this man at this time because he is doing this thing. If you support this man on this issue, vote for him.

He is a Tory. He's not standing on a broad Tory ticket, he is standing on one thing only. This is your opportunity to send a message about your liberties; this is a single issue election.

etc.

Where is 'Vote Tory'? It's a single issue election. It's not about Tory housing policy, or environmental policy or tax policy, it is about civil liberties with a Tory making the point, but it could equally well be an independent or Labour or a Liberal person, because it is SINGLE ISSUE.

First, your speech sounds like it will be excellent.

But I think you're a little wrong here. It's actually an abuse of the system for Davis to make this is a single-issue thing. When he is reelected, he will not only be voting on ID cards and 42 days' detention. It isn't single issue just because he says it is.

 

[Badger Kitten]

"I've met him, I back him, even though he is a Tory."

What's that say to you?

It says, I have met him, I back him in his civil liberties awareness raising protest, even though he is a Tory. Making it clear that I am not a Tory. Making it clear that this is not about party politics.

 

[xenon]

Davis has come slightly towards the position held by peple against DNA database, 42 Days, "Special rendition," etc. you don't need to jump over to where he is on the edges of that ground.

 

[butchersapron]

It says, I have met him, I back him in his civil liberties awareness raising protest, even though he is a Tory. Making it clear that I am not a Tory. Making it clear that this is not about party politics.

And that, in the context of his campaign you'd urge people to vote for him. Yes?

 

[Badger Kitten]

Desperate time, desperate measures. Civil liberties are important, a Tory is saying so, well, blow me down, onwards we go with the big point which is about liberty, not party politics.

*goes off to write speech*