David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties

[butchersapron]

What's your response to this Butchers? Does BK get the same "political wool over her eyes" treatment?

Yep, of course she does. The political idiocy in that post above is just what DD is relying on. And he's getting it in spades from the exact same liberal strata as i excecpted -the Observer, Dame this, lord that. And the exaxct same idiots that i knew would have to be arguied against when i first started on this thread.

I'll ask you what i just asked BK.

 

[elbows]

Here's a real fun story from the Observer:

"Suddenly, Labour is not laughing at David Davis"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/jun/15/labour.daviddavis

Has some funny stuff in there such as the media's attitude to his resignation, and how it differed from the blogosphere and other expressions of public opinion.

I was slapping my head and gesticulating when I read it, no shit 'he may be on to something'. Duhhhhh!

 

[butchersapron]

That's a discussion that could be had if such a candidate was standing. As yet there isn't one.

So, rather than having the patience to wait a few days (days in which you berate others for not doing something that you are apparently, that something turing out to be nothing) you jump in supporting the tory.

 

[Darios]

I'll ask you what i just asked BK.

In answer to the question I think you're asking - I'd support a pro-civil liberties campaigner if they were cross partisan.

 

[Darios]

So, rather than having the patience to wait a few days (days in which you berate others for not doing something that you are apparently, that something turing out to be nothing) you jump in supporting the tory.

As opposed to you doing exactly the same thing, except to knee-jerk oppose.

 

[butchersapron]

Some people on here are as much in their own 'blogoshpehere' bubble as the political reporters are in the westminster circus.

 

[butchersapron]

As opposed to you doing exactly the same thing, except to knee-jerk oppose.

Hang on, i didn't berate you for not doing anything, you attempted to do it to me. I've been looking for funding and a candiate all weekend. You've been posting stuff to a blog.

 

[butchersapron]

In answer to the question I think you're asking - I'd support a pro-civil liberties campaigner if they were cross partisan.

What do you mean by cross partisan?

 

[Darios]

What do you mean by cross partisan?

Someone who extols the virtues of civil liberties without, at the same time, attempting to give any particular political party a kicking. Dravidian's suggestion above for example wouldn't be something I could fully support as it singles out the Tories.

It's a bit like all the people who were turned off the anti-war campaigns because, despite being sincerely anti-war they were also told they had to be anti-Israel, anti-globalisation etc etc.

 

[Badger Kitten]

And you'd support the tory Davis over another pro-civil liberties candiate that didn't have such a spotty record on the issues as Davis does?

What other candidate?

I want a debate, and someone has cared enough to start one. Someone too senior to ignore. Someone whose background makes what he is saying genuinely shocking.

I am being pragmatic: some well-meaning small fry worthy person could stand, but I'd rather not divide and muddy the issue. Davis is not someone that Parliament can ignore. He really means it. So I support what he is doing on this single issue and I hope it turns into a cross-party mass movement that drags Parliament off its authoritarian path and makes them see that people do not like where we are going and want a reverse gear.

The more people back it, the harder it is to ignore. Squabbling and splitting the movement is counter-productive; strategically this needs everyone to rally round the ISSUE of civil liberties not descend into factionalism. Well, that is what I think anyway. One big diverse push. He started it, well, good on him. I'll run with it. Pointing out this is not about party politics, but about something far bigger.

 

[Dravinian]

And you'd support the tory Davis over another pro-civil liberties candiate that didn't have such a spotty record on the issues as Davis does?

What candidate?

You are talking hypotheticals. You are talking possibilities.

I was talking about the fact that the media will already be there. We can make a show of hands and it takes soo very little to do. A train to Grimsby. That is all you need to do. We can make signs when we arrive.

You are planning on, trying to, hoping to get done. If you don't succed, you can't raise the funds, you can't find a candidate? What we should all stay at home rather then vote tory, rather then vote for the one man in teh country that has put 42 days back on the agenda for the populace. I don't care about Davis, I don't know him, I don't particularly like him on the instinct that he is a tory. I do see this as an opportunity. An easy way for people to do something.

Yeah you MIGHT get a candidate and you might not. For sure the election is coming, and Davis will be standing as the candidate against 42 days, and for that issue, since it is the ONLY issue he is standing on, he isn't even being officially backed by the Conservative party...I am willing to stand next to him.

eta - and yeah, what badger said.

 

[butchersapron]

No. no small fry of course not. We wouldn't want therm muddying up the debate, with their opinions and views of course not. The civil liberties issue should strictly be restricted to a debate between the govt and opportunistic tories who support 28 days detention without trial. There's a rousing banner for your campaign, 28 days, not 42 days!

'The movement' - get to fuck if you want me to support a VOTE TORY, support 28 days, pro civil liberties movement. You total mug.

Has there been a total losss of political perspective on here, a total memory failure of how to read what political situations mean in the last few years>

 

[elbows]

I only care about the civil liberties issues and all the party politics and personality stuff is getting in the way. But this situation is better than nothing, at least the media will focus on the story for longer now, there will be more debate, and we can see how many people in Britain are ready to get vocal about such things. I dont think its necesary to back any candidate in order to get the point across, which is just as well as Im not liable to agree with every change Davis is proposing.

We've already seen party politics play its part in making this legislation happen, if the same happens with protests about it now then what a tragedy.

 

[butchersapron]

Someone who extols the virtues of civil liberties without, at the same time, attempting to give any particular political party a kicking. Dravidian's suggestion above for example wouldn't be something I could fully support as it singles out the Tories.

It's a bit like all the people who were turned off the anti-war campaigns because, despite being sincerely anti-war they were also told they had to be anti-Israel, anti-globalisation etc etc.

Wiithoutgiving the parties that have helped and led that erosion of civil liberties a kicking. It gets better. Support the parties that erode your civil liberties, support them in the name of civil liberties.

What the fuck is going on?

 

[JTG]

No Tory is part of any movement I want to be a part of.

Christ you're all talking about supporting a fucking Tory, just as you probably usually support fucking Labour with some equally pathetic excuse for allowing them to get away with this shit.

Telling people to vote tory on this is like telling people to vote Labour to oppose the BNP. It's not even a short term solution.

 

[butchersapron]

What candidate?

You are talking hypotheticals. You are talking possibilities.

I was talking about the fact that the media will already be there. We can make a show of hands and it takes soo very little to do. A train to Grimsby. That is all you need to do. We can make signs when we arrive.

You are planning on, trying to, hoping to get done. If you don't succed, you can't raise the funds, you can't find a candidate? What we should all stay at home rather then vote tory, rather then vote for the one man in teh country that has put 42 days back on the agenda for the populace. I don't care about Davis, I don't know him, I don't particularly like him on the instinct that he is a tory. I do see this as an opportunity. An easy way for people to do something.

Yeah you MIGHT get a candidate and you might not. For sure the election is coming, and Davis will be standing as the candidate against 42 days, and for that issue, since it is the ONLY issue he is standing on, he isn't even being officially backed by the Conservative party...I am willing to stand next to him.

eta - and yeah, what badger said.

That you are doesn't suprise me in the slightest.

What the hell does the media already being there mean? So what? VOTE TORY because the media is already there? I can hear the troops firing up their 4x4s already.

Can i just remind most people here that they don't live in the constituency and don't have a vote. TORY or otherwise.

 

[Badger Kitten]

No. no small fry of course not. We wouldn't want therm muddying up the debate, with their opinions and views of course not. The civil liberties issue should strictly be restricted to a debate between the govt and opportunistic tories who support 28 days detention without trial. There's a rousing banner for your campaign, 28 days, not 42 days!

'The movement' - get to fuck if you want me to support a VOTE TORY, support 28 days, pro civil liberties movement. You total mug.

Has there been a total losss of political perspective on here, a total memory failure of how to read what political situations mean in the last few years>

Look, we've had Liberty and Amnesty and CAMPACC and Mark Thomas and Henry Porter and Taking Liberties movie and all sorts for the last 3 years, and I have supported them all, and written about it as much as possible and gone to demos and written to my MP and lobbied and had meetings with politicians and the vote still went against us.

Now all of a sudden, everyone is talking about it, not just the usual suspects of people like me, bloggers and liberals and [insert insulting ephithet here] but people who would not normally give a shit.

I am in favour of that and I want more than anything to drag this into the public consciousness and make parliamentarians see that people are angry and they care. The blunt instrument that worked was DD. Fine. I'm not going to faff about wishing it was someone else, it is who it is and even though I absolutely not a Tory, I am just pleased that this has become a big issue and I will do what I can to fan the flames, not piss on them.

 

[Dravinian]

No Tory is part of any movement I want to be a part of.

Christ you're all talking about supporting a fucking Tory, just as you probably usually support fucking Labour with some equally pathetic excuse for allowing them to get away with this shit.

Telling people to vote tory on this is like telling people to vote Labour to oppose the BNP. It's not even a short term solution.

Even if it hurts them?

I mentioned it a few times for those that are just SOO caught up in their own hatred for the Conservative party that they can't see the bigger picture.

It will hurt the Conservatives for Davis to get huge popular support. It will fuck them for months to come, it might even be the begining of a challenge for the Leadership which would bring them into Turmoil just before an election is due.

If you hate the Conservatives so much....go support Davis.

 

[JTG]

supporting tweedledum against tweedledee solves fuck all

 

[Dravinian]

supporting tweedledum against tweedledee solves fuck all

Not if it gets tweedledee and tweedledum so busy fighting that they can't win an election.

Then it solves a bit, cause lets face it we all know the Conservatives will be worse in power, we may jokingly say, how can they be any worse?....but some of us have longer memories.

 

[butchersapron]

Look, we've had Liberty and Amnesty and CAMPACC and Mark Thomas and Henry Porter and Taking Liberties movie and all sorts for the last 3 years, and I have supported them all, and written about it as much as possible and gone to demos and written to my MP and lobbied and had meetings with politicians and the vote still went against us.

Now all of a sudden, everyone is talking about it, not just the usual suspects of people like me, bloggers and liberals and [insert insulting ephithet here] but people who would not normally give a shit.

I am in favour of that and I want more than anything to drag this into the public consciousness and make parliamentarians see that people are angry and they care. The blunt instrument that worked was DD. Fine. I'm not going to faff about wishing it was someone else, it is who it is and even though I absolutely not a Tory, I am just pleased that this has become a big issue and I will do what I can to fan the flames, not piss on them.

You can't agrue that people have been arguing about if for years and now they're suddenly talking about it as result of DD's opportunistic manouvere, certainly not when you're making the justification for SUPPORTING A TORY the need to keep the issue in the public eye. Too many contradictory claims at once.

And if you follow your logic there would never be any independent politics ever - it would all be conducted through the established parties. And the small fry would be silenced, Which you seem happy with. VOTE TORY for defence of some civil liberties and AGAINST a consistent pro-civil liberties candiates. 28 days not 42.

 

[butchersapron]

Not if it gets tweedledee and tweedledum so busy fighting that they can't win an election.

Then it solves a bit, cause lets face it we all know the Conservatives will be worse in power, we may jokingly say, how can they be any worse?....but some of us have longer memories.

So VOTE TORY to keep LABOUR in. Fucking hell, it gets worse.

 

[elbows]

Yeah well thats why I dont care about the vote, just the issue.

And yes there is massive irony that its a Tory, but there's also plenty of irony in everything Labour have done in power.

Divide and conquer is easy
Party politics makes me queazy


School holidays are coming. Dont they last about 6 weeks/42 days?
Surely something can be done with that to highlight the issue?

 

[JTG]

Not if it gets tweedledee and tweedledum so busy fighting that they can't win an election.

Then it solves a bit, cause lets face it we all know the Conservatives will be worse in power, we may jokingly say, how can they be any worse?....but some of us have longer memories.

yeah, then we can have Labour!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You can't agrue that people have been arguing about if for years and now they're suddenly talking about it as result of DD's opportunistic manouvere, certainly not when you're making the justification for SUPPORTING A TORY the need to keep the issue in the public eye. Too many contradictory claims at once.

And if you follow your logic there would never be any independent politics ever - it would all be conducted through the established parties. And the small fry would be silenced, Which you seem happy with. VOTE TORY for defence of some civil liberties and AGAINST a consistent pro-civil liberties candiates. 28 days not 42.

I must say, I'm coming round to your point of view, and I withdraw my exhortation to vote Tory earlier. I hope that a candidate advocating a return to 24 hours maximum detention without charge will stand. I would say vote for them. It is still, on balance, a good thing that Davis has done this - which is different from praising Davis and saying that he has done a good thing.

 

[xenon]

So you shouldn't support a candidate's position, on a specific issue. Even when it coincides precisely with your own position and when the election itself is a battle ground for that very issue. Plus when it carries far greater leverage because of who's involved. Thus potentially making real progress in averting more authoritanism, stoking up the ID card debate again, etc, etc.

Never mind that, your Tory voters in that constituency aren't gonna vote for some last minute put up, who's supposedly gonna be more demonstrably pro civil liberties, than the guy who's jumping all round that platform right now, anyway.

 

[Dravinian]

So VOTE TORY to keep LABOUR in. Fucking hell, it gets worse.

Well now you just being silly aren't you.

The suggestion that any third party could possibly win at this stage is just ridiculous.

So why not go for the lesser of two evils?

All of a sudden thats the bad idea? As opposed to what? Some magical third party coming along and sweeping to victory?

We can't even fucking agree on a strategy to commit to the defense of our civil liberties without fighting about it, but you think some special party is just going to come along and somehow turn enough of us into their voters to win?

Now you just being delusional man.

 

[butchersapron]

I must say, I'm coming round to your point of view, and I withdraw my exhortation to vote Tory earlier. I hope that a candidate advocating a return to 24 hours maximum detention without charge would stand. I would say vote for them. It is still, on balance, a good thing that Davis has done this - which is different from praising Davis and saying that he has done a good thing.

The main problem with getting a candidate (from the wing/approach that i'm arguing for) is seems to be finding some one in the consituency or at least active in the general local area.

 

[xenon]

That you are doesn't suprise me in the slightest.

What the hell does the media already being there mean? So what? VOTE TORY because the media is already there? I can hear the troops firing up their 4x4s already.

Can i just remind most people here that they don't live in the constituency and don't have a vote. TORY or otherwise.

It's you going on about voting. Dravinion's talking about getting up there and appearing under banners of pro civil liberties. While the media are looking that way. Not bloody canvassing for Davis.

 

[JTG]

so we let them debate it on their terms rather than ours then? Because Davis' views do not coincide precisely with mine, even on this issue. I'm a libertarian see