magneze
🎧
It was there before and unconnected to this tory.[/QUOTE]
David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties
- Thread starter magneze
- Start date
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Have you not a cess pit to dig?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's not bigger - it's exactly the same size!. That was the point.
How about a massive outdoor rave in his constituency...
magneze
🎧
Please point out where I said that "over and over".
Absolute rubbish.... and why is it meaningless to debate the issue? Considering that public opinion is currently _for_ extending detention without charge I think it's a debate worth having. What are you after with that question? A timetable? A schedule of events? I think I've answered that previously. You just didn't like what I said!
magneze
🎧
If there's a by-election on civil liberties alone then that guarantees more publicity than would otherwise be given to this issue IMHO. Otherwise the press would have got bored in about a day and it would only have come up again once it had gone to the Lords.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Please point out where I said that "over and over".
... and why is it meaningless to debate the issue? Considering that public opinion is currently _for_ extending detention without charge I think it's a debate worth having. What are you after with that question? A timetable? A schedule of events? I think I've answered that previously. You just didn't like what I said!
I haven't said that it's meaningles to debate the issue. That's total nonsense. I've said, quite explicitly and repeatdly that DD's action today are not designed to further that debate, they're designed to further his and his own parties ends. You've said that no, he can help and i've asked you how - you've been unable to say how.
On the first point, you've repeatdly asked me or commentd on what i'm doing in comparison to DD -i.e he's doing something and i'm doing nothing.
at least he's doing something!!!
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
It's not going to be about civil liberties though. It's going to be about attacking labour under the camoflauge of civil liberties. Led by someoene who voted for 28 days (but can;'t swallow 42 days), who opposes equal gay rights, who opposes abortion and wants to bring back hanging.
Maurice Picarda
Actually, might as well flounce.
They don't need camouflage to attack Labour though. The freebies to the DUP are all the ammo a sane opposition would need. Especially given GB's barefaced denial of it: TB would have giggled, shrugged and said "well, you know, that's politics". It's an open net, and this stunt is like a weird off-the-ball incident which turns the question from "is Brown finished?" to "is Davis a loon?".
I don't know what they're playing at. Baffling.
magneze
🎧
That's not true, I have never asked what you're doing on this issue - this isn't about you or indeed me. I made one throwaway comment after the billionth time you said that this shouldn't be used to further the cause of civil liberties. I disagree with that stance but I can understand your unease - I have similar uneasiness but I'm going to reserve judgement.
I have said how this can help - sure it's a bit blurry at the moment but I and others can see potential here. Will it be realised? It's too early to tell at the moment .... and it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
magneze
🎧
If you're right then this will be a pointless gesture and frankly the only damage done will be to Davis himself ... not really something many of us will lose much sleep over.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If you're sure that you've not asked me what i am doing or would do on this issue then fair enough. Maybe it was someone else. Apols if i got you mixed up with another poster on the thread.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Or, people might try and hitch their pro-civil liberties wagon to DD, which would be very dangerous indeed.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Off you run now then weepy.
magneze
🎧
It's a tightrope for sure.
What's interesting about the current coverage is that it's portrayed as a Tory split. So, could Davis screw the Tories at the next election whilst simultaneously curtailing the authoritarianism of New Labour?!
</über optimist>
Absolutely.
However, they do further the debate.
After all, we now have an opportunity for a more interesting debate on what can be done - in part because of his action (however cynical and self-serving) than I expect we'd have had if we were merely bemoaning the vote.
His action has brought the issue to peoples' attention.
No-one has to engage with or even acknowledge Davis to exploit that fact.
So. Question: what is to be done?
Demo? Bright ideas for non-set-piece, non-A-to-B event welcome, obviously - though probably not on the boards.
Personally, I'll be talking to and briefing as many Lords as I can - (a) because I can and (b) because this is important enough that I don't give a shit about the drawbacks of being reformist.
One of the things I'll be telling them is that "42 days" is probably the dummy provision in the Bill - designed to draw fire from, for example, Section 1.
That provides for seizure of documents - which would include computers and cameras - regardless of whether they are privileged documents like lawyer-client correspondence. The cops mustn't make copies. Oh no, of course they won't.
Bye bye protection of journalists' sources, bye bye building a defence case, bye bye reporting on anything the cops don't want reported...
This isn't the 1980s and things have moved on.
It would be good to see a discussion about basic civil liberties and the determined erosion of them by the current Labour administration. The response of the 'left' to all that has been happening has been woeful. It's no wonder no one even bothers to ask them what they are doing.
It would be good to see a discussion about basic civil liberties and the determined erosion of them by the current Labour administration. The response of the 'left' to all that has been happening has been woeful. It's no wonder no one even bothers to ask them what they are doing.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Indeed, and I was especially alarmed by this piece on the Grauniad:
Only the state can provide "freedom from want"?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Correct.
So, what now? Is there anything we can do? The habeas corpus issue, never fully opened before, can be fully opened out. We can do that.
The press are paying attention now. Should we just leave Davis to claim civil liberties for the Conservative cause? Or can we reclaim them?
I don't see how we've anything to lose in trying the latter. If this all narrows down again into a story about the leadership of Labour or the Tories, then that's what we had anyway. But maybe there's a chance to reclaim this issue.
There was a piece on Radio Scotland today. Before the Davis Show hit town. They had John Curtice on. He was talking about the polls on 42 days, and pointing out that there might be public support, but it depends on what question you ask. If you say "for terror suspects", people just see the word "terror". Of course they don't want terrorists roaming around. "42 days? Lock em up for 42 years!". But if you say, look, should people be held without charge for 6 weeks? Then you get a different response. Then people think about innocent until proven guilty, about having the case against you examined fairly. All that. They tried it as a totally unscientific vox pop, and got just that result.
That has never been put in front of people. The press were talking this morning about Brown winning the "anti terror vote" last night. Anti terror vote? Well, who would win a pro terror vote? No wonder some people think civil liberties are for bleeding heart pansies. There was no space for anyone saying it wasn't an anti terror vote, it was a pro tyranny vote. I understand Tony Benn was saying that stuff. But the story was "did Brown survive intact?"
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Can i stop you there. There's nothing that we could do in any substantial sense that we couldn't do before this.
Of course ride on the back of it for the next day or so if it's helpful. You'd be mad not to. Do the same again when the by-election happens. No problems. Mistaking this passing train for the real campaign , as i believe some people have, is going to lead to trouble. There's nothing that can be done that couldn't be done without ever even looking at DD. Mistaking him for genuine is going to lead a lot of idiots into his camp though and will undermine a serious campaign.
If the limit of what people's involvement is in piggy backing on a bit of stuff for a few days, then fine. Is it?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
That's what I've been saying.
Did you think I meant we should campaign for Davis in his bye election? I explicitly said not.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well there's certainly other stuff in between that people can do, and that i've been trying to argue that they shouldn't and that i'm, sure some of them will (not ness people on here, but Lord George Monbiot types). If all you mean is that he kept 42 days on the headlines for 1 day but that he offers nothing else to any anti-42 days campiagn then i'd have agreed. Some people here really have been going beyond this though.
90%+ of the time Tory=utter cunt is pretty accurate.
The only bad thing about this is David Davis will be straight back. However, one good thing about it is he'll never get a serious front bench job again. I hate him for pushing the Tories into wanting to reclassify cannabis as class B drug. Anyone who thinks you should be put in jail for up to five years for a spliff is seriously fucked up. The government are increasing the penalties for carrying a knife up from 2 years to 4 years and the penalties for carrying weed up from 2 years to 5 years. Something seems seriously wrong with that to me.
Any idea what the new shadow home sec is like?
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
That's all I mean. He's kept 42 days in the headlines. There's a chance (maybe a slim one, but a chance) that it'll be in the headlines for at least some of the 3 week bye election campaign.
Let us use that.
My posts are here:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7623466&postcount=349
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7624240&postcount=373
Of course we need to campaign separately from Davis. We need to distance ourselves from him. His circus is not ours. But if we can build something akin to the anti poll tax unions, and use this spotlight while it's still on, great. If it suddenly narrows again, and we are cast back into shadow, then that's where we were anyway.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well there should be a real anti-42 days candidate at the very least. We might have one (more later). We might get some proper politial theatre on this one.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I hope some self appointed "leftists / anarchists" can see an emerging ugly truth in this monumentus event.
To unite against tyranny is going to take a large umbrella of groups and intrests.
For too long we have been caught up in factional infighting on our issues.
X wont work with Y and Z has blackballed X.
Its all bollocks. I hear it all the time amongst left and green activists.
The tyranny of the police state is not some paranoid gibbering. Look at the legislation in the US post 911. With biometric ID and internment without trial we face a huge threat.
Davies is a right winger - we dont need any illusion about that. But he is a dedicated libertarian, we should recognise that and work with it.
He has committed to a month campaigning on these issues. Frankly, non conservative activists need to bandwaggon this.
To fail to salute this move would be nothing but churlish. He may be a tory, but at least he'll admit it unlike the treacherous Labour scum who have shat on centuries of basic freedoms.
To unite against tyranny is going to take a large umbrella of groups and intrests.
For too long we have been caught up in factional infighting on our issues.
X wont work with Y and Z has blackballed X.
Its all bollocks. I hear it all the time amongst left and green activists.
The tyranny of the police state is not some paranoid gibbering. Look at the legislation in the US post 911. With biometric ID and internment without trial we face a huge threat.
Davies is a right winger - we dont need any illusion about that. But he is a dedicated libertarian, we should recognise that and work with it.
He has committed to a month campaigning on these issues. Frankly, non conservative activists need to bandwaggon this.
To fail to salute this move would be nothing but churlish. He may be a tory, but at least he'll admit it unlike the treacherous Labour scum who have shat on centuries of basic freedoms.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Now you're talking!
Fantastic. What would be even funnier would be if Labour didn't stand, and all we had was DD and a Real Anti-42 Days candidate.
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