David Davis resigns as MP over civil liberties

[exosculate]

So when was he being genuine - today or when he voted for 28 days? Given that the first vote was the actual key one that set the precedent.

He's a curious mixture of things.....

 

[butchersapron]

...you were claiming him as an hard core libertarian earlier (just after you said *all* mps were scum). What point are you making?

 

[exosculate]

...you were claiming him as an hard core libertarian earlier (just after you said *all* mps were scum). What point are you making?

I declared nothing of the sort, I said he had a tradition of some libertarian politics, and I said most MPs are scum, not all, although he is scum to be fair.

I'm still interested in the libertarian strand within conservative politics, however weak it is in places.

 

[liampreston]

No he's not -that's what he's telling us he's doing - you're under no obligation to believe him. I'd suggest that you're a mug if you do.

Well I am neither as cynical as you, nor a mind reader, so until either or both those things occur, I have to take what I am being told.

Butchers, I happen to agree with you on many points. When I used to more of a full time poster here, I often clashed with you, but found you, more than not, to have a sound head on your shoulders. For the time being, and [Sir Alan Sugar] with respect [/sas] I disagree.

Yes, he voted for the 28 day extension. If what he is saying is genuine - and let's be frank, potentially ruining his career is a big step for someone within the Westminster bubble - then he has seen too many civil liberties being chipped away and has resigned as a matter of principle.

Yes, he is a Tory. Yes, he is an MP as much typical as any other, but on this - just this once and maybe never again - I thiknk he may well be genuine.

 

[butchersapron]

I declared nothing of the sort, I said he had a tradition of some libertarian politics, and I said most MPs are scum, not all, although he is scum to be fair.

I'm still interested in the libertarian strand within conservative politics, however weak it is in places.

You said

"DD has a long history of libertarian positions within the Conservative party, one can't simply brush that aside". He doesn't, and yes i can and do. IT's a simple handy cloak for a tactical manouvere. He's no consistent principled libertarian loon like Alan Duncan.

 

[exosculate]

You said

"DD has a long history of libertarian positions within the Conservative party, one can't simply brush that aside". He doesn't, and yes i can and do. IT's a simple handy cloak for a tactical manouvere. He's no consistent principled libertarian loon like Alan Duncan.

He does though, it is patchy i will admit, but it is there to an extent at least, in a way it is not at all present on the Labour front bench.

You are trying to make the existence of his libertarian politics a black and white/yes or no issue, it is clearly far more complex than that.

 

[butchersapron]

He does though, it is patchy i will admit, but it is there to an extent at least, in a way it is not at all present on the Labour front bench.

You are trying to make the existence of his libertarian politics a black and white/yes or no issue, it is clearly far more complex than that.

I'm trying to foreground his tory politician-ness.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Looks to have been a bit of a dumb move, too - I doubt either Labour or Lib Dems are going to step in and fight the by-election.

Gon' look abit dumb,

 

[longdog]

I've not read the thread but I would like to point out that since the last gerrymander taking Goole out of the constituency a pig's bladder on a stick would win if it had a blue rosette on it.

 

[MikeMcc]

Because the vote has already taken place. The lords may fuck about for a year, the parliament act will be used and it will then automatially pass. If you think civil liberties are going to be defended by patrician tories rather than 'the people' themselves then you're not going to see them defended at all.

But when / if the Lords kick it out it has to go back to the Commons to be re-voted, then it gets bounced to the Lords again. So there will be another chance for it to be booted out if enough Labour / DUP MPs grown some balls.

 

[butchersapron]

£1.2 billion worth of balls. Likely.

 

[magneze]

But when / if the Lords kick it out it has to go back to the Commons to be re-voted, then it gets bounced to the Lords again. So there will be another chance for it to be booted out if enough Labour / DUP MPs grown some balls.

Exactly ... and the fact that it's taken a Tory to take this issue up in such a high profile way might actually be a wake-up call for those Labour sheep. One can only hope.

 

[danny la rouge]

So when was he being genuine - today or when he voted for 28 days?

My feeling is that this is probably a jolly Etonian debating chamber wheeze and that Cameron is in on it. I might be wrong, but that's my feeling. But it doesn't matter.

I'm not suggesting we all pitch up to Toad in the Wold, or wherever his constiuency is, and leaflet for Davis. I'm just suggesting that a stage is set here, and if we don't use it, we will be missing an opportunity that wasn't there for 28 days, or for 42 days in the Commons.

A model we could use? You said it yourself: the Poll Tax campaign. Local Habeas Corpus Unions. Or something of the sort.

 

[agricola]

My feeling is that this is probably a jolly Etonian debating chamber wheeze and that Cameron is in on it. I might be wrong, but that's my feeling. But it doesn't matter.

I'm not suggesting we all pitch up to Toad in the Wold, or wherever his constiuency is, and leaflet for Davis. I'm just suggesting that a stage is set here, and if we don't use it, we will be missing an opportunity that wasn't there for 28 days, or for 42 days in the Commons.

A model we could use? You said it yourself: the Poll Tax campaign. Local Habeas Corpus Unions. Or something of the sort.

Exactly. Just because this is a Tory doing this, or because this may well be a stunt, shouldnt detract from the argument that is being put across. 42 days, the ID cards, non-convicted/cautioned/warned people on the DNA database and the rest need to be opposed. This by-election will allow at least some of that debate to take place.

 

[butchersapron]

Doing what though!!!!!

 

[danny la rouge]

Doing what though!!!!!

Building a public forum to oppose the repeal of habeas corpus.

 

[butchersapron]

Building a public forum to oppose the repeal of habeas corpus.

He's not doing that nor going to be part of doing that danny. Any initial oppostion will be within tightly guarded controlled borders that are designed to support the tory party -and awill dissolve as the imperiative to attack Brown/labour takes over. That's all. That's all it can ever be.

 

[danny la rouge]

He's not doing that nor going to be part of doing that danny.

I know that. I didn't say he was. I said there is an open stage in front of us because of this that wasn't there for the commons vote.

 

[magneze]

Best not bother then eh? Lets do fuck all.

 

[butchersapron]

Best not bother then eh? Lets do fuck all.

Yep, that's what i said. Tell me, in practical terms how this helps. Are you going to put on talks by DD, bring up his 'opposition' in events you set up? What? Support tory anti 42-dayers? What?

 

[butchersapron]

I know that. I didn't say he was. I said there is an open stage in front of us because of this that wasn't there for the commons vote.

It was there before and unconnected to this tory.

 

[magneze]

Yep, that's what i said. Tell me, in practical terms how this helps. Are you going to put on talks by DD, bring up his 'opposition' in events you set up? What? Support tory anti 42-dayers? What?

That's what you implied.

You say the stage was there before ... and you're right ... but now it's a bigger stage. That is the point which me & others are trying to make.

 

[danny la rouge]

Do you remember the anti poll tax campaign? The SNP ran their own non payment campaign. But that didn't mean the anti poll tax unions campaigned for the SNP, but it did mean there was a bigger stage to play on.

Forget Davis. What I'm saying is he has got people's attention. So let him fight his bye election. He can do that over in the corner. But we can take this to a wider audience now. People can now talk about the difference between a suspect and a terrorist. And all that stuff.

 

[danny la rouge]

It was there before and unconnected to this tory.

No it wasn't; the story had been closed down into a story about Brown's leadership.

Now it isn't.

Look, I've got to do stuff right now. Don't know if I'll be able to post again tonight, but I'll be back to this. I think there's an opportunity here.

 

[butchersapron]

Best not bother then eh? Lets do fuck all.

This sort of post, the ones that suggest that at least he's doing something rest on the assumptipn that his oppostion is genuine. It isn't. If it was he would have opposed the doubling to 28 days instead of voting for it. He's not doing anything. So the argument falls. There's a temporary by-product opf people speculating about his motives. And that's about it.

 

[soulman]

.

 

[butchersapron]

That's what you implied.

You say the stage was there before ... and you're right ... but now it's a bigger stage. That is the point which me & others are trying to make.

No it's not. What stage? What bigger stage?

 

[magneze]

This sort of post, the ones that suggest that at least he's doing something rest on the assumptipn that his oppostion is genuine. It isn't. If it was he would have opposed the doubling to 28 days instead of voting for it. He's not doing anything. So the argument falls. There's a temporary by-product opf people speculating about his motives. And that's about it.

My point wasn't "at least he's doing something". My point was - surely this can be used as an opportunity. It would be a mistake to dismiss it out of hand IMO.

 

[butchersapron]

Do you remember the anti poll tax campaign? The SNP ran their own non payment campaign. But that didn't mean the anti poll tax unions campaigned for the SNP, but it did mean there was a bigger stage to play on.

Forget Davis. What I'm saying is he has got people's attention. So let him fight his bye election. He can do that over in the corner. But we can take this to a wider audience now. People can now talk about the difference between a suspect and a terrorist. And all that stuff.

That's an entirley un-apt comparison. The players don't map onto todays example. And more to the point, DD is not doing this about civil liberties or 42 days. The campaign will not be about that. It'll turn soon enough to an anti-labour anti brown agenda. It's just not about 42 days, so there's no opp to talk to anyone else, through the window or otherwise. There will be a tight professional tory campiagn that you'd be a mug to go near. He's not providing anthyingiother than photo opps and tory propoganda.

 

[butchersapron]

My point wasn't "at least he's doing something". My point was - surely this can be used as an opportunity. It would be a mistake to dismiss it out of hand IMO.

Yes it was, over and over. Chck your own posts.

What could be used as an opp and how. I just asked you that.What opp mis there there? (Please don't say something meaningless like it povides an opportunity to debate the issue.)