Cave painting question - do you think these might be not very old at all?

[bimble]

I am googling hard but can't figure it out and now really curious..

here's a photos of the paintings in question.
There are loads. They look great.


They are near to a town in India called Bundi (where i'm going to be for a bit next month).

Variously claimed to be 10-15,500 yrs old, so similar to Lascaux .

There is one man who takes tourists to see them, and only he knows where they are or so it seems from the internet.

He is also the person ('amateur archaologist') who discovered them in the first place in 1995.
Every mention of the paintings seems to be joined with his name and nobody else's.
eg tripadvisor 'cave paintigs bundi' is all just about him and his tour guide business.
He has a website which is this:

Account Suspended

Pre-historic rock painting found in Bundi-Bhilwara region | Jaipur News - Times of India

A Bundi-based amateur archeologist has claimed to have discovered a rock painting of pre-historic age stretching up to 35 km in the Garadha area of th

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

They look great and i definitely want to meet him and see them but do you think maybe he made them himself or am i being a horrible cynic?

If they were genuine wouldn't they be actually famous and studied and protected and stuff?

 

[Saul Goodman]

I'm going with he's a lying bullshitter, who doesn't know how to paint cowfoxcats.

 

[JimW]

Seems legit, if you look closely the artist has signed and dated it 12,357BC.

 

[Idris2002]

Seems legit, if you look closely the artist has signed and dated it 12,357BC.

When he was older he made his signature further up.

 

[klang]

the people in the painting are clearly up in arms for being called that old.

 

[bimble]

I kind of hope that the tour guide did make them. Wld be a good business idea.

 

[JimW]

I kind of hope that the tour guide did make them. Wld be a good business idea.

Would you not be able to tell, shouldn't there be accretions on top in spots. Though the Lascaux ones look pretty fresh so maybe it varies with geology and microclimate.

 

[bimble]

i have no idea how you'd tell. Or what i could ask him that would reveal if he is the artist.
What are

accretions on top in spots

 

[JimW]

i have no idea how you'd tell. Or what i could ask him that would reveal if he is the artist.
What are

Think a lot of caves get later mineral deposits, like the way stalactites build up, so some older rock art has subsequent mineral coatings on top.

 

[Mrs Miggins]

Smells like grade A bullshit to me but it might still be fun.

 

[klang]

the people in the painting are clearly up in arms for being called that old.

ok I'll say it one more time, somebody might laugh this time around:

the people in the painting are clearly up in arms for being called that old.

 

[Saul Goodman]

ok I'll say it one more time, somebody might laugh this time around:

 

[klang]

wow, you found something older than the cave painting.

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Ach. They can surely carbon date the paint used if they want to know how old the paintings are.
Good story though.

 

[weltweit]

I kind of hope that the tour guide did make them. Wld be a good business idea.

Reminds me a bit of the tourism effect of the Loch Ness Monster, except here there evidence which could unmask the painter ..

Good luck to the tour guide I say ..

 

[Saul Goodman]

Is that an aircraft marshall in the middle of the picture, bringing one of those cowfoxcats in to land?

 

[JimW]

Hanky waver, proving the Indian origin of Morris dancing. Of course, they'll deny it.

 

[klang]

Is that an aircraft marshall in the middle of the picture, bringing one of those cowfoxcats in to land?

 

[klang]

the one on the very right has an islamic ray gun

 

[Baronage-Phase]

Looks like Captain Kirk has arrived.

 

[WouldBe]

Would you not be able to tell,

Gloss paint is a dead giveaway.

 

[trabuquera]

Have a look for any academic papers (that's from real universities not online diploma mills) that mention Bundi. If no mention then these won't be real. Of course much archaeology is scamming wherever/whenever in the world it's from but this is exactly the sort of jugaad (look it up!) which an overeducated but underemployed Indian graduate might dream up.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Have a look for any academic papers (that's from real universities not online diploma mills) that mention Bundi. If no mention then these won't be real. Of course much archaeology is scamming wherever/whenever in the world it's from but this is exactly the sort of jugaad (look it up!) which an overeducated but underemployed Indian graduate might dream up.

Peer reviewed cowfoxcats.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Ach. They can surely carbon date the paint used if they want to know how old the paintings are.
Good story though.

The paint would have to have carbon in it. that red colour is probably ground iron oxide. It would have to have something carbon based as a binder or filler to get a date.

 

[Saul Goodman]

The paint would have to have carbon in it. that red colour is probably ground iron oxide. It would have to have something carbon based as a binder or filler to get a date.

Most iron contains carbon.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

probably not carbon created at time of painting i would have thought.

 

[bimble]

now think i was wrong and they could well be real. If not then he just added a bit to existing real ancient ones nearby.There is definitely stuff around very nearby, and he (the tour guide) seems to be up for carbon dating but nobody has yet come round to do it?

Archaeological experts seek carbon dating of Hadoti rock paintings

The Hadoti region and its nearby areas, including Bhilwara, Tonk and Chittorgarh, have treasures of rock shelters and rock paintings of which many have been discovered and many still remain unexplored.

www.hindustantimes.com

 

[Baronage-Phase]

They can check if it's post bomb peak at least. And also check any flowstone on its surface for age by measuring the decay of radioactive isotopes which will help with dating....

How Nuclear Bomb Tests Are Helping to Identify Art Forgeries (Published 2019)

Using radiocarbon dating, scientists can uncover counterfeit artworks using smaller than ever samples of canvas and paint chips.

www.google.com

Up to 2009 only small amounts of organic matter could be dated directly using carbon isotope decay. Then a new, highly sensitive dating method, called accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) was developed. It’s an expensive but effective method, since it only requires 0.05 milligrams of carbon (the weight of 50 specks of dust). That’s much less than the 1 to 10 grams of carbon needed with normal carbon.

In 2010 a new development allowed the El Costillo paintings in Spain to be dated more accurately, pushing the advent of cave painting back 10,000 years.

This new method involved the measurement of the decay of inorganic materials. It measured the decay of uranium isotopes in the thin calcite flowstone growths that form on the surfaces of the paintings and engravings. Flowstones are created as water dissolves calcium compounds that are later deposited when the water collects on a prominent point forming a special type of stalagmite (Figure 5).

The research team was conducted by scientists from the University of Bristol. The team included Dr Paul Pettitt from the University of Sheffield’s Department of Archaeology a renowned expert in cave art.

Defining the age of a rock or cave painting

Discover how it is possible to date rock and cave paintings, using science.

edu.rsc.org

 

[Pickman's model]

Have a look for any academic papers (that's from real universities not online diploma mills) that mention Bundi. If no mention then these won't be real. Of course much archaeology is scamming wherever/whenever in the world it's from but this is exactly the sort of jugaad (look it up!) which an overeducated but underemployed Indian graduate might dream up.

this is the only thing i can find http://www.heritageuniversityofkerala.com/JournalPDF/Volume3/18.pdf and it hasn't, according to google scholar, been cited by anyone

 

[bimble]

When he was older he made his signature further up.

I have now gotten this joke.