Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

Cafe ID

platinumsage

HaveMyPassword123
I'm trying to find the name and/or location of a cafe in central London that closed down in the late 80's or early 90s. I think it was somewhere between Fenchurch Street and Paddington. My grandad apparently frequented it while working in London in the 70s and 80s so it was probably there for a long time.

It was located out of a small back exit of a train station (possibly a tube station). From this exit you looked down upon the street (I presume there was a staircase) and the cafe was located directly opposite across the road. It had a ground floor level and a basement level from where you could hear tube trains going underneath. I have a vague feeling this could have been the Metropolitan or Central lines.

The proprietor had grey hair and glasses, and I think was Italian. They had a Parmesan cheese shaker on every table and there was a dumb waiter. It wasn't a fancy place.

Any ideas?
 
sounds like a few places round Kings Cross that might have been near either the York Road exit or the Pentonville Road exit that turned in to the (1980s) Thameslink station, although they were both at street level, but Italian run cafes in central London weren't a rarity...

Broad Street and St Pancras were both above street level, and Liverpool Street used to have one or two odd exits which I don't think are there any more.
 
At a wild guess I'd say possibly the Farringdon/Clerkenwell area.

It roughly fits the description of being between Fenchurch Street and Paddington and has a long-standing Italian community. But as Puddy_Tat has just said, Italian run cafes weren't a rarity!
yes was thinking the same
and metropolitan line runs near the surface

incidentally ive never set eyes on Fenchurch Station - its nice
Fenchurch_Street_station_%286553644825%29.jpg
 
Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'm Google streetviewing but there's been so much redevelopment since then, especially around stations.

My grandad worked for the Met (desk job) and commuted from Fenchurch Street. Perhaps it was on his route home? I checked Victoria but the buildings seem too grand around there.
 
Villiers Street along the side of Charring Cross seems like the right sort of street, was there ever a first-story exit there?
 
platinumsage do a search on 'London's lost cafes' and a site on this very subject comes up which may be of interest. I'd post up the link, but as I was about to do so the url(?) said Not Secure. Might just be my overzealous anti-virus but I'll post it up if people can't find it, and are interested.

Just seen your last post...Charing Cross was my very first thought as it has a small rear exit above street level, but isn't on the Metropolitan or Central lines. Yes, there is still a first storey exit on Villiers Street, and still a couple of Italian restaurants..
 
Villiers Street along the side of Charring Cross seems like the right sort of street, was there ever a first-story exit there?

yes, and still is - street view here

there's always been cafes along villiers street, but can't remember ever using them in the 70s / 80s - at that time, charing cross to home was less than half an hour away, so wouldn't have eaten out that close to home.

@platinumsage do a search on 'London's lost cafes' and a site on this very subject comes up which may be of interest. I'd post up the link, but as I was about to do so the url(?) said Not Secure. Might just be my overzealous anti-virus but I'll post it up if people can't find it, and are interested.

this site? it's http but not https, but since all you're doing is looking, there's no risk (chrome gets a bit nervous about anything that's not https)
 
D and E depertments (staff, estates etc). I presumed New Scotland Yard but I may be wrong.

1971 phone book -

1613584091408.png

think stuff like finance and property came under the 'receiver' so New Scotland Yard sounds more likely, although Albert Embankment's a possibility.

If I was living somewhere on the Fenchurch Street lines, then I'd have thought walk from Fenchurch Street to Tower Hill, then district / circle line to St James Park would be the logical commute.

St James Park has a slightly obscure side exit on Palmer Street, but the main exit would make more sense as it's nearer to New Scotland Yard. There's a fair few cafes round there as well. I worked for a while in a place (not a cafe) in Caxton Street and you could hear the underground trains if you were in the basement.
 
yes, and still is - street view here

there's always been cafes along villiers street, but can't remember ever using them in the 70s / 80s - at that time, charing cross to home was less than half an hour away, so wouldn't have eaten out that close to home.

Interesting - I don't immediately recognise those steps but the Arches shopping centre on the left must be new, so it would have looked different in the 80s. If this was the location the cafe must have been in either Pret or Lulivo, I wonder if either have tube lines under their basements (if they basements). This may not be the place but the scenario of walking out from the station via a small side exit and looking down across this sort of street is bang on. I do vaguely recall some brutalist architecture around the steps though but may be wrong.
 
but the Arches shopping centre on the left must be new, so it would have looked different in the 80s.

Yes - think it dates from the mid 1990s, when they built offices above part of Charing Cross (main line) station


I wonder if either have tube lines under their basements (if they basements)

yes - the northern line runs under villiers street (open street map showing it here) - what's now charing cross tube station used to be two separate stations, strand (northern line) and trafalgar square (bakerloo line) and what's now embankment underground used to be called charing cross. they changed it in the 70s when the jubilee line (that does not go to charing cross any more) opened.

ETA - better OSM map here
 
1613585777333.png

on the left is a boarded-up caff....on the right is one of the entrances into Fenchurch Street Station....does this have the vibe?
 
At a wild guess I'd say possibly the Farringdon/Clerkenwell area.

It roughly fits the description of being between Fenchurch Street and Paddington and has a long-standing Italian community. But as Puddy_Tat has just said, Italian run cafes weren't a rarity!

Cafés that weren't run by Italians were a bit of a rarity at the time.

Have you looked here: Classic Cafes | Lost Cafes

Classic Cafes | London's vintage Formica caffs!

Or even here:
*London cafes: your very best recommendations, please!

It may be one of the few to have survived into the third decade of the Twenty-First Century.
 
Yes - think it dates from the mid 1990s, when they built offices above part of Charing Cross (main line) station




yes - the northern line runs under villiers street (open street map showing it here) - what's now charing cross tube station used to be two separate stations, strand (northern line) and trafalgar square (bakerloo line) and what's now embankment underground used to be called charing cross. they changed it in the 70s when the jubilee line (that does not go to charing cross any more) opened.

ETA - better OSM map here

I think I'll have to go into these places after lockdown and ask if they have basements and can hear the trains.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tim
I think I'll have to go into these places after lockdown and ask if they have basements and can hear the trains.

:)

wouldn't be at all surprised - i have also worked somewhere above the northern line and we could hear the trains from the basement there

found a 1965 photo of Villiers Street

london-villiers-street-c1965_l1305325.jpg
 
:)

wouldn't be at all surprised - i have also worked somewhere above the northern line and we could hear the trains from the basement there

found a 1965 photo of Villiers Street

london-villiers-street-c1965_l1305325.jpg

My granddad got mugged, or whatever the Edwardian equivalent of mugging was, down Villiers Street in about 1910. He was convinced it was the most dangerous place in London and probably Europe. If you mentioned The Strand, The Embankment, or Charing Cross Station, you would be questioned and excoriated for your foolhardiness if you admitted venturing down that rather unimpressive thoroughfare.

It was fortunate that he was in a reserve occupation during the Great War, as I don't think he would have lasted long in the trenches.
 
Interesting - I don't immediately recognise those steps but the Arches shopping centre on the left must be new, so it would have looked different in the 80s. If this was the location the cafe must have been in either Pret or Lulivo, I wonder if either have tube lines under their basements (if they basements). This may not be the place but the scenario of walking out from the station via a small side exit and looking down across this sort of street is bang on. I do vaguely recall some brutalist architecture around the steps though but may be wrong.

Well L'ulivo certainly has a basement

16938721_1193421557440986_8394068240697854292_n.jpg
 
A little further down but this pic shows what Villiers Street looked like before the new shopping bit was built


I looked into that "Florence Restaurant" one door down from the Princess of Wales in that pic:

Image2.jpg

Here's an earlier undated pic from a page about the pub, showing it was more of a cafe:

PrincessofWales2.jpg

I Googled it and found a couple of mentions

Firstly an account of the last movements of Hannah Tailford, a victim of the unsolved Hammersmith nude murders, "one of the biggest manhunts in Scotland Yard's history":

"Arnold Downton, a British Rail shunter, knew the dead woman as 'Doll' and had seen her several times at the Charing Cross coffee stall. At about 6.30pm on 31 January he and his girlfriend saw her there, standing on her own. She was starving, so they took her to the Florence Cafe in Villiers Street and bought her a meal.

Secondly in an account of Soho coffee bar scene:

"In the 1950s, London was there for the taking. It was bomb-damaged, impoverished and dirty, but it was also cheap, cosmopolitan and – in the area of Soho – a stimulating environment. Anyone could make their way into this raffish district and hope to get by. Here, you could drift around the cafes, make friends, maybe find casual employment and somewhere to doss down for the night. Those who became members of ‘the Group’ mostly arrived this way. The coffee bar scene, characterised by the hiss of espresso machines, and the steam of frothy milk, was growing fast. One Signor Riservato, a dental-equipment salesman from Italy, was the unlikely founder of this craze. Arriving in England to sell his wares, he was disgusted by what passed for coffee here. He switched his stock to sell Gaggia espresso machines, and opened his own café, the Moka Bar, which was the first to kick off the Soho coffee bar craze.

The founders of the Group - Alan Bain, Glyn Davies and Tony Potter – held court, singly or together, in a few selected coffee bars. ‘The Florence’ and ‘the Cross’, both in in Villiers St by Charing Cross, and the 2 Gs (The Gyre and Gimble) were favourites...Exciting times! Soho society then was a mix of truth-seeking youngsters, creative artists and original thinkers, but along with that went prostitutes, heavy protection rackets, and homeless runaways, many of whom were in trouble.[iii] Group members took their responsibilities seriously: ‘Some of those we met in the cafes were young girls who had run away from home or were wanted in court. Usually we managed to talk them into going back home, or facing up to whatever they were running away from,’ Keith Barnes reported. And here’s what Lionel Bowen had to say: "...My generation of the Group met in three different restaurants: Joe Lyons Corner House in the Strand, The Cross and the Florence on Villiers Street. Where we met depended on how much money we had at any one time. The Florence Cafe was the best, but we had to order a meal to sit there for any length of time."

I remember my grandad being surprised when told the cafe had closed c.1990 - as if it had been long-standing institution, so this one certainly fits the bill in that regard....there must be some photos of the interior around somewhere...

Here's a sales brochure for most of the street being sold as a lot, confirms 29 has a basement:

 
Last edited:
You could check a Thomson's directory for the 1980s although this will require visiting the British Library. The whole series is available there, part of the General Reference Collection so probably stored on site. From the early 1980s the full publication title was 'Thomson local directory' so that's what should be entered into the main catalogue.

Older trade directories can be searched for a fee via ancestry websites, but iirc they go up to around the early 20th century, no later. ETA: you can search phone directories online up to 1984 at ancestry.co.uk, but it's geared towards searching for people's names.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom