editor
hiraethified
Anything's possible, but given the tightness of the market community, I'd imagine such arrangements would be common knowledge.
Brixton Village/Granville Arcade indoor market, Brixton
- Thread starter Ms T
- Start date
TruXta
tired
editor
hiraethified
I suppose ultimately it's about the value people put on the street markets. If they don't use them, they'll disappear like so many other street markets, but there may be a discussion to be had about pressuring new businesses to buy their ingredients off them (if they're not doing so already).
I have no answers, but I do know that the day Brixton loses its amazing street markets will be a very, very sad day indeed.
I have no answers, but I do know that the day Brixton loses its amazing street markets will be a very, very sad day indeed.
trabuquera
Modesty Bag
*ahem*
I think it's wrong to see this as fundamentally a newcomers vs 'real' old brixtonites problem TBH. It isn't the new influx which is CAUSING the old stallholders to wither away; rather that the old already was withering, for a complex variety of reasons, and that the rebranding and influx of 'outsiders' has only accelerated and aggravated pre-existing problems (or 'trends' if you want to be a bit less condemnatory) which are:
- street markets in general are in decline if they retail low-cost household goods and food only
- supermarket conglomerates in general are beating out competition, thanks to their outrageously abusive treatment of suppliers, the people who work for them, their links with local-authority planners, globalisation, blah blah blah
- many working people (ESPECIALLY WOMEN, to be all tiresomely feminist about it) struggle to fit market shopping around their working hours
- brixton demographics were changing well before the market's rebranding (i.e. retirees going to the Caribbean, strivers going further out to suburbia, yuppies bleeding in from Clapham borders), for reasons to do with property pricing - and that has eaten into the customer base for the more traditional market stalls
But for me the crucial factor - the elephant in the room, because it sets two dearly-held urban ideals (properly mixed community in SW9 + commitment to greener living) against each other - is this one:
BECAUSE THE COUNCIL CLOSED THE FECKING MULTISTOREY CARPARK ffs!
I can remember at the time this happened, the more eco-warrior types among us argued strongly that Brixton's already a traffic hellhole, gas is bad, etc etc etc - but surely, the only buyers who would or could keep the older style stalls in business are those who would buy in some bulk (i.e. a whole weekly shop for a large family, or supplying a catering business or whatever). A few yuppies buying the odd daily carrot would not keep them afloat anyway. So for their worthwhile customers - the ones who'd keep a stall in good, solid, repeat business of a respectable scale - the loss of the carpark facility was a death blow.
None of the above means I'm above sneering at a hipster or wanting to smack some of the more poncy and more recent invaders. but to blame the change on them and them alone is unfair, I think.
I think it's wrong to see this as fundamentally a newcomers vs 'real' old brixtonites problem TBH. It isn't the new influx which is CAUSING the old stallholders to wither away; rather that the old already was withering, for a complex variety of reasons, and that the rebranding and influx of 'outsiders' has only accelerated and aggravated pre-existing problems (or 'trends' if you want to be a bit less condemnatory) which are:
- street markets in general are in decline if they retail low-cost household goods and food only
- supermarket conglomerates in general are beating out competition, thanks to their outrageously abusive treatment of suppliers, the people who work for them, their links with local-authority planners, globalisation, blah blah blah
- many working people (ESPECIALLY WOMEN, to be all tiresomely feminist about it) struggle to fit market shopping around their working hours
- brixton demographics were changing well before the market's rebranding (i.e. retirees going to the Caribbean, strivers going further out to suburbia, yuppies bleeding in from Clapham borders), for reasons to do with property pricing - and that has eaten into the customer base for the more traditional market stalls
But for me the crucial factor - the elephant in the room, because it sets two dearly-held urban ideals (properly mixed community in SW9 + commitment to greener living) against each other - is this one:
BECAUSE THE COUNCIL CLOSED THE FECKING MULTISTOREY CARPARK ffs!
I can remember at the time this happened, the more eco-warrior types among us argued strongly that Brixton's already a traffic hellhole, gas is bad, etc etc etc - but surely, the only buyers who would or could keep the older style stalls in business are those who would buy in some bulk (i.e. a whole weekly shop for a large family, or supplying a catering business or whatever). A few yuppies buying the odd daily carrot would not keep them afloat anyway. So for their worthwhile customers - the ones who'd keep a stall in good, solid, repeat business of a respectable scale - the loss of the carpark facility was a death blow.
None of the above means I'm above sneering at a hipster or wanting to smack some of the more poncy and more recent invaders. but to blame the change on them and them alone is unfair, I think.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
But those things (their traditional customers moving out/being priced out/evicted) aren't a direct result of the new businesses moving in. Rather, both are *symptoms* of broader demographic changes.
I think there's some confusion of cause and effect going on here.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
So have I. But there is little more than assumption and generalisation in a claim that "they all say they do when they don't" as el_a said.
It's obvious that Brixton's changing demographic is changing the market. I just don't think there's much duplicity going on. Not much more than many of us would admit to anyway.
TruXta
tired
Surely it's a two-way thing. Much as I like Brixton Market, no one has a duty to buy things they don't want or don't need. As Rushy said above, if the customer base changes the onus is mainly on the traders to adapt to that.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
The street market has grown in the last few years: Station Rd on a Saturday and Sunday.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Sure, but Ed was talking generally and so was I.
editor
hiraethified
Two sides of the same coin. The development (and publicity) of Brixton Village helped raise the profile of Brixton as a 'nice' place to live, which in turn helped drive up property demand, which in turn put pressure on existing squats and co-ops and so on.
Sure, it was all going to come someday - we're just too close to central London to escape it forever - but there's no question in my mind that the Village played a notable role in the recent changes to Brixton, and those changes are having a knock on effect right across town, including the markets.
quimcunx
imprimeo, lamino, distribuo
fair enough.
editor
hiraethified
I'm talking about the traditional markets on Electric Avenue.
Winot
I wholeheartedley agree with your viewpoint
Yes, I'd agree with that. I just don't think the new traders have done anything wrong.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
From a purely town planning and streetscape point of view, the current use of Electric Avenue for market stalls is bonkers IMO. It's already got shops with stalls lining both sides of the road. The gap between the shops and the temporary stalls is too narrow on one side, and full of traders' detritus on the other. It could be much better organised. If I had a magic wand, I'd restrict standalone market stalls to the Western half of the road, with the traders backs to the dead facades of Boots and Iceland, allowing the shop units on the Eastern half (some of which are miniscule) to spill their stock out into a similar position. This would leave the center of the road for pedestrian access, with much more space to get around. Dare I say it would be more attractive?
Not half as much as the supermarkets, and in particular people's changing work patterns have done.
Markets all over the world are changing. Most of the stuff sold in street markets isn't food but cheap clothing and other tat, for a very simple reason - it's a lot less hassle/more profitable because it's less regulated and the products aren't perishable. Even village markets in rural France, you can see the same thing happening. People shop at the supermarkets for cheese and charcuterie.
I guess twenty years ago most of the stalls on Electric Ave were fruit and veg. They've been very much in the minority for the best part of a decade - long before the Villaaage phenomenon. Other street markets in London the same - I can remember going to Woolwich market in the early 1980s, fantastic arrays of fab fresh salad gear from Kent.
We buy almost all our fresh fruit and veg from the market but it's not in massive volumes so we don't spend loads with them. The problem is range and quality; on price and convenience, the market wins hands down. But too often, even when we have a good relationship with a trader, they don't have the stuff we need, or it's been in their lockup for two or three days and is past its best. It's more reliable to deal with a New Covent Garden foodservice specialist greengrocer who will deliver. We haven't yet gone down that route, but it's one I'm seriously considering.
I sometimes despair of the poor quality and range of produce in Brixton Market. It's great for plantains, yams and Scotch Bonnets. It's very hard to find decent quality fresh seasonal British produce in Brixton at all; the place in Herne Hill is much better but pricey. However I don't really blame the traders; stock is perishable and has to shift on the day. Plus, the plain fact is that people with money to spend have jobs to go to during the week. So if they want some fresh asparagus for a weekday supper, they'll pick it up from Sainsbury's on the way home from work. We don't expect the market trader to be open at seven pm, particularly if they've had to go to Borough or Spitalfields at six in the morning to buy their stock for the day.
As Winot says there is a bit of a revival, particularly on Brixton Station Rd. But Brixton's six-day-a-week market is built around an archaic notion of when customers can and can't do their shopping.
Markets all over the world are changing. Most of the stuff sold in street markets isn't food but cheap clothing and other tat, for a very simple reason - it's a lot less hassle/more profitable because it's less regulated and the products aren't perishable. Even village markets in rural France, you can see the same thing happening. People shop at the supermarkets for cheese and charcuterie.
I guess twenty years ago most of the stalls on Electric Ave were fruit and veg. They've been very much in the minority for the best part of a decade - long before the Villaaage phenomenon. Other street markets in London the same - I can remember going to Woolwich market in the early 1980s, fantastic arrays of fab fresh salad gear from Kent.
We buy almost all our fresh fruit and veg from the market but it's not in massive volumes so we don't spend loads with them. The problem is range and quality; on price and convenience, the market wins hands down. But too often, even when we have a good relationship with a trader, they don't have the stuff we need, or it's been in their lockup for two or three days and is past its best. It's more reliable to deal with a New Covent Garden foodservice specialist greengrocer who will deliver. We haven't yet gone down that route, but it's one I'm seriously considering.
I sometimes despair of the poor quality and range of produce in Brixton Market. It's great for plantains, yams and Scotch Bonnets. It's very hard to find decent quality fresh seasonal British produce in Brixton at all; the place in Herne Hill is much better but pricey. However I don't really blame the traders; stock is perishable and has to shift on the day. Plus, the plain fact is that people with money to spend have jobs to go to during the week. So if they want some fresh asparagus for a weekday supper, they'll pick it up from Sainsbury's on the way home from work. We don't expect the market trader to be open at seven pm, particularly if they've had to go to Borough or Spitalfields at six in the morning to buy their stock for the day.
As Winot says there is a bit of a revival, particularly on Brixton Station Rd. But Brixton's six-day-a-week market is built around an archaic notion of when customers can and can't do their shopping.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
I thought Crispy's request a citation was in relation to people saying they use the market and not doing so?
ETA - oh yes, I see he has confirmed that himself.
editor
hiraethified
Not sure why you're aiming that at me because he asked el-ahrairah. I just helpfully provided some background.
Short of quizzing each restaurant owner, I'd imagine it'll be hard to know for sure who buys what from where, but I'd suggest that fortyplus's post gets to the heart of the matter.
Rushy
basically a scrotum
In the context you appeared to be suggesting they were an example of traders claiming to use the market but not and therefore somehow an example of why the markets are struggling. I thought maybe you knew something we didn't. Obviously you were just telling us that they use the market - which I guess is a Good Thing, yes? All clear - I understand now.
editor
hiraethified
I'm pretty sure that the OP makes it very clear as to who said what, and I started the thread to get people's opinions on the matter.
However, you seem to want to turn it into some sort of interrogation, so you know what? I'll leave you to it.
TruXta
tired
So are you essentially answering your own OP with a no then? As in no, it's not BV and the new traders that is killing off street market, it's far bigger issues?
OvalhouseDB
Well-Known Member
Poundland and the 99p Store must have quite an effect too - I see long queues of people in there buying groceries and market-stall type goods. I bought two enamel dishes labelled as 'rice plates' for £3.99 each from a longstanding trader in Granville Arcade a few weeks ago, but could have bought enamel plates in the 99p Store. I chose the rice plates because they looked nicer and I was being precious in my tastes for my camping gear - which probably isn't the business plan behind any market stall.
editor
hiraethified
I suspect it was the cheaper clothes stores that called off a lot of the original Station Road market a decade ago - that used to stretch nearly all the way up to Valentia Place.
I haven't reached any conclusion yet as I think it's quite a complex issue, with perhaps lots of smaller changes having a larger, knock on effect.
OvalhouseDB
Well-Known Member
There's always Lidl's tempting selection of seasonal clothing - ski-ing gear, gardening outfits, wetsuits and vests made from suspiciously slinky synthetic jersey fabric. I have noticed that Lidl is not as cheap as it was since the pound has fallen against the Euro, but the options for cheap shopping have grown.
Though the market seemed to be in it's heyday when Tesco and then Kwiksave was on Pope's Rd.
Though the market seemed to be in it's heyday when Tesco and then Kwiksave was on Pope's Rd.
TruXta
tired
That's kind of a conclusion right there tho - at least you're not anymore suggesting that it's all BV/MR.
editor
hiraethified
If you read the first post properly, you'll see that I never did ("They also said that the people now coming into Brixton are far less likely to buy anything off them, and that's putting their whole future in doubt. ").
leanderman
Street Party: July 2
Lots of interesting contributions. Thanks all
Rushy
basically a scrotum
No, no. Allow me to apologise. I thought you were publicly exposing a pair of strangers on a public forum for no good reason. Again. My mistake.
Nour Cash & Carry usually has plenty of loose and bagged spinach.
