British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Athos]

Did you know more white people are killed by police than black people? That's the same hole you and Athos are going down.

You've not provided any evidence for your assertion that people of colour are more likely to be dual nationals.

 

[LDC]

Did you know more white people are killed by police than black people? That's the same hole you and Athos are going down.

No, I was interested in the stats of dual nationality as you raised it, that's not any hole I was going down. I'm not sure either way, but I think it's far from obvious or certain, and was surprised you seemed to think it was.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm astounded you could think that white people in this country are more likely to have dual nationality than people of colour.

Is this a joke?

 

[IC3D]

Two most popular threads atm are about the behaviour of teenage girls mostly argued over by middle aged men. Odd.

 

[strung out]

Is this a joke?

You think white people in this country are more likely to be dual nationals than brown people?

 

[Athos]

It's a nonsense argument, anyway, because it affects such a tiny subset of people of colour that race becomes insignificant in practice. And it presumes that a right to racial equality of those whose presence is considered* a threat ought to trump the rights of others - of all races - to safety.

* Though I have gave concerns about the mechanism for reaching this assessment.

 

[LDC]

Two most popular threads atm are about the behaviour of teenage girls mostly argued over by middle aged men. Odd.

Behaviour ffs? It's not like we're discussing her not tidying her bedroom or skipping lessons is it? Have no idea what other thread you're referring to.

Stop infantilising her, she's 20, would you be so against discussing the actions of a 20 year old fascist or soldier or murderer?

FWIW I do think there's dodgy reasons why she's been picked up on by the media, but that doesn't mean discussing it here is dodgy.

 

[Ax^]

this is a very strange thread in the midst of the wind rush scandal and it's resulting effects


when plenty of completely innocent people are losing there status and being deported , losing homes and jobs

making a hostile environment fucking effects

 

[Spymaster]

You think white people in this country are more likely to be dual nationals than brown people?

I don’t think it’s at all unlikely.

 

[bellaozzydog]

That seems a bit naive, and unrealistic. If, for example, you had gold-plated intelligence that a French person was travelling to the UK to plant a dirty bomb in London that would kill millions, I think most people would think a temporary travel on ban on the French could be a proportionate response in pursuance of a legitimate aim. What would the alternative be? Let the bomber come? Ban all travel?

It would be a complete anti terrorism own goal

disruption of normal societal activities is one of the aims

if you want better anti terrorism responses and outcomes properly fund and manpower the organisations supplying those services while closely Scrutinising how they do it and not introducing mega draconian catch all legislation that fucks people human rights for the sake of political posturing)

Obviously I am living in la la Utopia so you may as well make the living conditions and Daily living experience of citizens good enough that less of them are fucked off enough to be open to radicalisation/grooming

On radicalisation... an interesting read is Going Dark , Julia Ebner.

not a comprehensive study but interesting case studies/experiences

It’s a universal human psychology. Simple to apply

 

[freakydave]

This is a pretty clear example of indirect racial discrimination isn't it? A law that discriminates on the basis of dual nationality, holders of which are people likely to be non-white than white.

It's probably white people who are Irish

 

[IC3D]

I think the media picking it up is really dodgy LynnDoyleCooper I don't think this thread is much better running with it.

 

[freakydave]

I don't think that it needs to be complicated by race. I think that having dual nationality shouldn't count against you and this is a good example of why

 

[LDC]

I think the media picking it up is really dodgy LynnDoyleCooper I don't think this thread is much better running with it.

Given the fact Syria, the Syrian Revolution, Rojava, Kurdish stuff and IS have been long running discussion topics here it'd be weirder if this didn't get a long thread tbh.

 

[Spymaster]

It's probably white people who are Irish

And a whole host of other people of mixed nationality white parents. Given that 2 of the major countries from which people of colour in the U.K. originate from, India and Pakistan, do not confer automatic citizenship by descent, I would surmise that the majority of people of South Asian heritage born here do not have dual citizenships. That takes an awful lot of people of colour out of Strung Out’s assertion.

 

[IC3D]

Completely different set of posters LynnDoyleCooper but sure.

 

[LDC]

Completely different set of posters LynnDoyleCooper but sure.

Anyway, Saturday night, off to drink lager and eat Thai food and moan about all sorts of other things now.

 

[Athos]

It would be a complete anti terrorism own goal

disruption of normal societal activities is one of the aims

if you want better anti terrorism responses and outcomes properly fund and manpower the organisations supplying those services while closely Scrutinising how they do it and not introducing mega draconian catch all legislation that fucks people human rights for the sake of political posturing)

Obviously I am living in la la Utopia so you may as well make the living conditions and Daily living experience of citizens good enough that less of them are fucked off enough to be open to radicalisation/grooming

On radicalisation... an interesting read is Going Dark , Julia Ebner.

not a comprehensive study but interesting case studies/experiences

It’s a universal human psychology. Simple to apply

All true. But, in the hypothetical I gave, funding etc. would require time travel!

 

[IC3D]

Anyway, Saturday night, off to drink lager and eat Thai food and moan about all sorts of other things now.

Enjoy

 

[scifisam]

I mean, how come no one is saying this guy shouldn't have had his British nationality removed. Cos he's a bloke? Cos he was more directly involved in violence?

Alexanda Kotey - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He really shouldn't have, even though he's a murdering bastard - he's been left stateless.

However, someone mentioned him as an example of a white person being stripped of his citizenship, and he's not white.

The reason there's not as much discussion about him is partly because it was straightforwardly illegal of the UK to make him stateless, and partly because teenage girls and their dying babies unsurprisingly elicit a little more sympathy.

No, it can't be. But nationality and race are different.

It can and has been done.

Strung out's right that this law affects more non-white people proportionately. Citizenship is automatic for people whose parents or grandparents were born in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, the Philippines, and lots of other countries that aren't majority white and have significant populations in the UK. It's absurd to act as if white people are going to be equally affected. The only significant dual nationality of a majority white country in the UK is likely to be Irish, and that's not automatic if it's just grandparents - plus it affects an awful lot of non-white people too.

 

[scifisam]

And a whole host of other people of mixed nationality white parents. Given that 2 of the major countries from which people of colour in the U.K. originate from, India and Pakistan, do not confer automatic citizenship by descent, I would surmise that the majority of people of South Asian heritage born here do not have dual citizenships. That takes an awful lot of people of colour out of Strung Out’s assertion.

Pakistan does - it's automatic for people with Pakistani parents or grandparents. And although Pakistan doesn't usually allow dual nationality it makes an exception for British.

Directorate General of Immigration & Passports, Ministry of Interior, Government of Pakistan

.

 

[Spymaster]

He really shouldn't have, even though he's a murdering bastard - he's been left stateless.

However, someone mentioned him as an example of a white person being stripped of his citizenship, and he's not white.

The reason there's not as much discussion about him is partly because it was straightforwardly illegal of the UK to make him stateless, and partly because teenage girls and their dying babies unsurprisingly elicit a little more sympathy.



It can and has been done.

Strung out's right that this law affects more non-white people proportionately. Citizenship is automatic for people whose parents or grandparents were born in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, the Philippines, and lots of other countries that aren't majority white and have significant populations in the UK. It's absurd to act as if white people are going to be equally affected. The only significant dual nationality of a majority white country in the UK is likely to be Irish, and that's not automatic if it's just grandparents - plus it affects an awful lot of non-white people too.

Pakistan have to register overseas births with the Pakistani embassy for dual nationality so they’re not going to not know about it.

 

[butchersapron]

He really shouldn't have, even though he's a murdering bastard - he's been left stateless.

However, someone mentioned him as an example of a white person being stripped of his citizenship, and he's not white.

The reason there's not as much discussion about him is partly because it was straightforwardly illegal of the UK to make him stateless, and partly because teenage girls and their dying babies unsurprisingly elicit a little more sympathy.



It can and has been done.

Strung out's right that this law affects more non-white people proportionately. Citizenship is automatic for people whose parents or grandparents were born in Bangladesh, Pakistan, Kenya, Nigeria, the Philippines, and lots of other countries that aren't majority white and have significant populations in the UK. It's absurd to act as if white people are going to be equally affected. The only significant dual nationality of a majority white country in the UK is likely to be Irish, and that's not automatic if it's just grandparents - plus it affects an awful lot of non-white people too.

It's automatic and there's fucking millions of us.

 

[scifisam]

Pakistan have to register overseas births with the Pakistani embassy for dual nationality so they’re not going to not know about it.

Only if their parents are also citizens by descent. If their parents are citizens by birth, citizenship is automatic. It says that in the link you didn't bother reading.

What does it matter whether someone knows they've got dual nationality or not??

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

As stated, the UK will not strip an Irish citizen of UK citizenship as it would be pointless given the Common Travel Area. So Irish heritage folk can be removed from the equation.

 

[Athos]

As stated, the UK will not strip an Irish citizen of UK citizenship as it would be pointless given the Common Travel Area. So Irish heritage folk can be removed from the equation.

I've already explained why this isn't true.

 

[Athos]

It can and has been done.

What, people without dual nationality have been stripped of the British nationality by the government under this provision? If that's true, I'd be interested to see an example.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The fact that someone with an Irish parent would be in the same situation as someone with a Bangadeshi parent doesn't stop this from being a racist stance. All it means is that 'Irish' can be added to 'Bangladeshi' as an ethnicity that could be discriminated against in this way.

This could all be very easily cleared up by applying the simple rule that dual nationality can only be considered in such cases if the person in question has taken steps to obtain the second nationality, or, if under age, their parents have done so. Where no such steps have been taken, someone cannot then be treated differently due to the accident of another country's citizenship laws that they may well be entirely unaware of. The saying 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' would then sensibly only apply to UK law, not every law in every country in the entire world.

 

[scifisam]

What, people without dual nationality have been stripped of the British nationality by the government under this providing? If that's true, I'd be interested to see an example.

There's a link to one in the actual post you were responding to.

 

[Athos]

The fact that someone with an Irish parent would be in the same situation as someone with a Bangadeshi parent doesn't stop this from being a racist stance. All it means is that 'Irish' can be added to 'Bangladeshi' as an ethnicity that could be discriminated against in this way.

This could all be very easily cleared up by applying the simple rule that dual nationality can only be considered in such cases if the person in question has taken steps to obtain the second nationality, or, if under age, their parents have done so. Where no such steps have been taken, someone cannot then be treated differently due to the accident of another country's citizenship laws that they may well be entirely unaware of. The saying 'ignorance of the law is no excuse' would then sensibly only apply to UK law, not every law in every country in the entire world.

In practice who would benefit from this? I mean who would not be stripped of British nationality that would be under the existing system?