British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[LDC]

Yeah, I imagine the camp guards would happily drive her to any border meeting point. They just want shot of her.

Some combination of that happening and then being met at the Iraqi side by UK officials of some sort is probably the least complicated way of doing it. She could get stuck on a commercial flight in cuffs with a few security leaving from the KRG to UK I guess. Turkish Airlines if she's really unlucky. That'd be the cheap way of doing it.

 

[Spymaster]

Getting her out would be relatively straightforward - not without significant risk to service people, and not cheap (a replacement C-130 will cost you north of £100m, and even if goes unscathed, you're forking out for flying hours in the tens of thousands of pounds, the crew, and the team who'll go and get her) but relatively straightforward for a state with significant military capabilities, a footprint in the region, a working relationship with local players, and a planning staff who practice this stuff regularly.

The problem is fundamentally that while a court might order a government to allow her to do something, it simply cannot order a government to take military action that it doesn't want to take. That's a very big line in the political sand, and one very few - regardless of their views about this individual - would be comfortable with.

It exposes - for the 67,896,423rd time - that policy that relies on someone just repeatedly saying what the policy is to somehow make it happen doesn't work.

By all means strip her of her citizenship, cancel her passport etc.. but then you have do something to actually ensure she never walks on UK soil again.

The government is appealing the appeal and asking for this judgement not to be implemented until then, so it doesn't look like she's going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[Sprocket.]

Will she have to spend two weeks in quarantine?

 

[kebabking]

It strikes me that had the country had better laws about joining murdering and raping death cults in other countries we wouldn't have a problem now. If it was likely she'd be looking at a lot of porridge on her return I doubt many would be bothered but because its seems likely any sentence will be quite short or not even custodial at all I think that jars.

It's a shitshow all round - the Home Office were constantly running around like headless chickens whenever any of the unwanteds looked like they were coming back - not once did it ever occur to them to cancel passports, strip citizenship etc... as soon as it became clear what they had done, it's always at the last minute.

People going overseas to join various nasties has been a problem since the 90's, yet no government has really given much effort to making the situation clear with lots of very explicit primary legislation.

 

[cyril_smear]

Either my joke was shit, or you're very slow, or maybe a bit of both...

I got it. I was just making sure though.

 

[miss direct]

Cross the border with Iraq and turn herself in. Get arrested and deported to the UK for illegally entering Iraq.

Is it really that simple for someone to leave an ISI refugee camp, get across to the Iraq border and manage all of those steps, especially during covid? I can't imagine it is, nor that there is much deportation from Iraq to the UK.

 

[Spymaster]

It's a shitshow all round - the Home Office were constantly running around like headless chickens whenever any of the unwanteds looked like they were coming back - not once did it ever occur to them to cancel passports, strip citizenship etc... as soon as it became clear what they had done, it's always at the last minute.

People going overseas to join various nasties has been a problem since the 90's, yet no government has really given much effort to making the situation clear with lots of very explicit primary legislation.

I suspect that attempts at meaningful legislation won't be far behind this case but it won't be easy. You'd think that something eminently sensible along the lines of 'if you choose to join a genocidal cult and immerse yourself in their culture for 5 years you will lose your citizenship if you hold another' would fly through, but this thread shows the difficulties attached when the bleeding hearts get involved.

 

[kebabking]

Is it really that simple for someone to leave an ISI refugee camp, get across to the Iraq border and manage all of those steps, especially during covid? I can't imagine it is, nor that there is much deportation from Iraq to the UK.

It's certainly that simple to leave the IDP camp if the guards of that camp are happy for you to leave. The last time I looked she wasn't that far from the Iraqi border so walking is certainly possible. However, it's not a safe place, it's crawling with both IS and people who hate IS, and neither would think twice about leaving her in a ditch - to the Kurds she's a slaver and a murderer, to IS she's a traitor.

I'm struggling to see why the Iraqis would let her in - UK court shenanigans aren't their problem, and they have troubles enough. It's just easier for everyone if she just ceases to be...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I suspect that attempts at meaningful legislation won't be far behind this case but it won't be easy. You'd think that something eminently sensible along the lines of 'if you choose to join a genocidal cult and immerse yourself in their culture for 5 years you will lose your citizenship if you hold another' would fly through, but this thread shows the difficulties attached when the bleeding hearts get involved.

You're ok with thousands of citizens being branded second-class? You're really ok with that?

You're a fucking disgrace.

 

[MickiQ]

Yeah, I imagine the camp guards would happily drive her to any border meeting point. They just want shot of her.

Perhaps so, I would stress again that I care nothing for her or what happens to her as an individual. Wouldn't bother me if she was strung up with the rest of them. My objection was and remains one of total opposition to the idea that politicians can strip UK citizenship aquired by birth (not naturalisation) from a British citizen no matter now underserving most people think she is of it.

 

[Spymaster]

You're ok with thousands of citizens being branded second-class? You're really ok with that?

You're a fucking disgrace.

Oh get fucked. Dual nationality brings quite a lot of advantages. That it should also entail a few responsibilities like "don't join ISIS" is perfectly reasonable.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Birthplace isn't a factor for citizenship here in the UK.

 

[Athos]

Oh fuck off if you're not going to engage with the argument. The argument is over whether she is a dual national or not. She says she isn't. Bangladesh says she isn't. There are bigger issues at play here that you simply refuse to engage with.

For the purposes of English law, it doesn't matter what a Bangladeshi politician claims; it only matters what English courts find the Bangladeshi law says (which is a matter of fact, rather than law). And Bangladeshi law is really clear on the point; that she became a Bangladeshi citizen at birth (and remains so until 21, absent any explicit earlier renouncement). I find it hard to see how she can win the substantive appeal, but, once she's back, it'll cause a tricky situation if she loses and Bangladesh refuse to take her. She might be in a sort of limbo - immigration detention with no clear end in sight.

 

[Teaboy]

I suspect that attempts at meaningful legislation won't be far behind this case but it won't be easy. You'd think that something eminently sensible along the lines of 'if you choose to join a genocidal cult and immerse yourself in their culture for 5 years you will lose your citizenship if you hold another' would fly through, but this thread shows the difficulties attached when the bleeding hearts get involved.

Would this law apply to posh mercenaries? I do hope so. What's Mark Thatcher up to these days I wonder?

 

[Pickman's model]

You're ok with thousands of citizens being branded second-class? You're really ok with that?

You're a fucking disgrace.

i haven't ever seen you speak up for people with british second class citizenship, for example the british overseas territories citizens.

Types of British nationality

The different types of British nationality explained - British citizen, British overseas territories citizen, British overseas citizen, British subject, British national (overseas), British protected person

www.gov.uk

 

[LDC]

For the purposes of English law, it doesn't matter what a Bangladeshi politician claims; it only matters what English courts find the Bangladeshi law says (which is a matter of fact, rather than law). And Bangladeshi law is really clear on the point; that she became a Bangladeshi citizen at birth (and remains so until 21, absent any explicit earlier renouncement). I find it hard to see how she can win the substantive appeal, but, once she's back, it'll cause a tricky situation if she loses and Bangladesh refuse to take her. She might be in a sort of limbo - immigration detention with no clear end in sight.

Have there been any other cases over the years (I mean non-IS related specifically) involving non-UK citizens living/detained here, but unable to be deported or sent anywhere else?

 

[Pickman's model]

Would this law apply to posh mercenaries? I do hope so. What's Mark Thatcher up to these days I wonder?

dying, i hope

 

[kebabking]

Would this law apply to posh mercenaries? I do hope so. What's Mark Thatcher up to these days I wonder?

It should be fairly easy to come up with something akin to the Treason Act - just replace all the monarch stuff with 'the UK, it's laws and it's values-type guff.

 

[Raheem]

Have there been any other cases over the years (I mean non-IS related specifically) involving non-UK citizens living/detained here, but unable to be deported or sent anywhere else?

Unless I'm misunderstanding something about the question, all refugees and asylum seekers.

 

[Spymaster]

Would this law apply to posh mercenaries? I do hope so.

Absolutely.

 

[Pickman's model]

It should be fairly easy to come up with something akin to the Treason Act - just replace all the monarch stuff with 'the UK, it's laws and it's values-type guff.

oh there'd be a lot of fun arguing about its values.

judging by the current administration corruption is a very british value

 

[bimble]

Some countries definitely have a rule that you lose your right to citizenship if you -or even yr dad- have ever gone and joined an army of another country whether or not that’s been an enemy combatant (Slovakia has this I know because of my recent thing of getting citizenship from them). If UK has a rule like that which spells out what the things (crimes or actions) are exactly that can lose you your citizenship that might help. If you knew it was a one way ticket I mean you might think twice.

 

[Pickman's model]

Some countries definitely have a rule that you lose your right to citizenship if you’ve gone and joined an army of another country whether or not that’s been an enemy combatant (Slovakia has this I know because of my recent thing of getting citizenship from them). If UK has a rule like that which spells out what the things (crimes or actions) are exactly that can lose you your citizenship that might help. If you knew it was a one way ticket I mean you might think twice.

i think begum never anticipated needing a return

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Some countries definitely have a rule that you lose your right to citizenship if you -or even yr dad- have ever gone and joined an army of another country whether or not that’s been an enemy combatant (Slovakia has this I know because of my recent thing of getting citizenship from them).

Which is why France offers citizenship to those who have served (honourably) in the foreign legion for a number of years.

 

[bimble]

i think begum never anticipated needing a return

That’s probably true.

 

[LDC]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something about the question, all refugees and asylum seekers.

Yeah, but most will be in a process of getting leave to remain, or being deported somewhere where they have citizenship or to another country they first went to?

I guess this will be someone without UK citizenship, but unable to be deported anywhere, in some kind of legal limbo.

 

[bellaozzydog]

I suspect that attempts at meaningful legislation won't be far behind this case but it won't be easy. You'd think that something eminently sensible along the lines of 'if you choose to join a genocidal cult and immerse yourself in their culture for 5 years you will lose your citizenship if you hold another' would fly through, but this thread shows the difficulties attached when the bleeding hearts get involved.

“When bleeding hearts get involved”

 

[Ax^]

I suspect that attempts at meaningful legislation won't be far behind this case but it won't be easy. You'd think that something eminently sensible along the lines of 'if you choose to join a genocidal cult and immerse yourself in their culture for 5 years you will lose your citizenship if you hold another' would fly through, but this thread shows the difficulties attached when the bleeding hearts get involved.

if I only Isis had bought it's weapons from the United Kingdom she never of had this sort of problem

 

[Pickman's model]

I suspect that attempts at meaningful legislation won't be far behind this case but it won't be easy. You'd think that something eminently sensible along the lines of 'if you choose to join a genocidal cult and immerse yourself in their culture for 5 years you will lose your citizenship if you hold another' would fly through, but this thread shows the difficulties attached when the bleeding hearts get involved.

i wonder how this might affect anyone who becomes a member of the chinese communist party which is of course committing genocide in xinjiang

 

[Spymaster]

if I only Isis had bought it's weapons from the United Kingdom she never of had this sort of problem

Never HAVE had ...