Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.

[The39thStep]

How exactly do 'we' do that?

Well rather than moan about how terrible it is on here join a campaign ?

 

[Pickman's model]

This brexit wasn't voted for in any referendum. This brexit with an end to free movement, an end to customs union, an end to alignment, the imposition of new borders, the imposition of new immigration restrictions, the imposition of new registers for foreigners. There was none of that in any referendum. The referendum said 'leave' therefore any kind of leave is more democratic than not leaving - that's a deeply anti-democratic argument.

it was endorsed in a general election. you may remember it.

 

[8ball]

it was endorsed in a general election. you may remember it.

I thought that was people voting not to be herded into Jeremy Corbyn's death camps.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I went for a drink in Wetherspoons a while back, with quite a few other people. We’d been there for a long time when somebody told us that we would take a vote on going elsewhere. A slim majority voted to leave the pub, but lots of people didn’t vote (they were in the loo, outside for a ciggy, too sozzled etc) or they weren’t allowed to vote because they were too young, or even worse, foreign. The trouble is that some of those who voted to leave wanted to go to the Rose and Crown, others to the Blacksmiths arms, some for a pub crawl and some just wanted to go to the Co-op for some carry-outs. Years later some of those who voted have died, a whole lot more have grown up and can now legally buy alcohol, but their views aren’t counted. It’s raining outside. But we’ve been told by the landlord that we’ve got to leave because that’s democracy. Anyone else ever encountered such a bizarre situation?

 

[not a trot]

I went for a drink in Wetherspoons a while back, with quite a few other people. We’d been there for a long time when somebody told us that we would take a vote on going elsewhere. A slim majority voted to leave the pub, but lots of people didn’t vote (they were in the loo, outside for a ciggy, too sozzled etc) or they weren’t allowed to vote because they were too young, or even worse, foreign. The trouble is that some of those who voted to leave wanted to go to the Rose and Crown, others to the Blacksmiths arms, some for a pub crawl and some just wanted to go to the Co-op for some carry-outs. Years later some of those who voted have died, a whole lot more have grown up and can now legally buy alcohol, but their views aren’t counted. It’s raining outside. But we’ve been told by the landlord that we’ve got to leave because that’s democracy. Anyone else ever encountered such a bizarre situation?

Anyone who votes to leave a weatherspoons is alright by me.

 

[Yossarian]

Looking around at the world right now, how bad do things have to get before those who voted 'leave' admit that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't such a good idea?

I think most people on both sides are unlikely to start changing their minds at this point - if Brexit is a massive success, which I think at this point means "things only being slightly more shit," Remainers are still going to say "I told you so" at every possible opportunity, and if it fails to deliver whatever the Tories claimed the benefits were going to be, Brexit enthusiasts will blame it on Remoaners diluting Brexit by moaning too much.

 

[not a trot]

Anyone who votes to leave a weatherspoons is alright by me.

Whetherspoons, but who gives a fuck.

 

[8ball]

Whetherspoons, but who gives a fuck.

Whether spoons or what?

 

[existentialist]

So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?

No. All that demonstrates is that more people wanted it than didn't: it says nothing about the rationale for doing it. Nor, even, that the decision to leave will achieve the things those who voted for it claim to want it to achieve.

I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.

Bullshit. Saying a vote or a decision is flawed or wrong is "anti-democratic" is just idiocy.

Remember, after all, that Hitler got voted into power. Would it have been "anti-democratic" to call out the National Socialist party for its actions and views, too?

 

[The39thStep]

I wouldn't overstate that particular case if I were you, given how few Asian or black leavers there actually were. Most Asian and black people voted remain, and not out of some love of Europe or sense of a wider EU nationality or any of that guff, but precisely because they feared a general rise in racism and xenophobia in the UK. That was a particular issue cited by Asian and black 'remainers', and there were a lot more of them than 'leavers'.

And of course the Windrush scandal wasn't motivated by the decision to leave the EU. It predates it. It was, however, very much motivated by the scapegoating of immigration and immigrants that has been happening throughout the Tory 'austerity' period, and that formed a big part of the 'leave' campaign. And that is very much an ongoing and escalating process. We now have a prime minister who is nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant (not just anti immigration, but anti immigrants, with their funny customs and cultures). And he has a big majority, and he has purged his party of what passed for its moderate wing. Just look at who is now Home Secretary.

A third of Asian and black people voted leave, dunno exactly what the figures work out in hundreds of thousands but I'd say not just a few. In fact there are many examples of leave voting areas with substantial BAME populations Slough, Bradford, Luton, even in London Hillingdon . Research into motivation for BAME leave voters revealed sovereignty , control of borders, anti muslim attitudes in Europe and unfair discrimination in immigration as factors. The issue about motivation of BAME remain voters was mainly influenced by the justified perception that the Tory and UKIP led leave campaign was racist, it wasnt a vote to endorse the EU. Of course if Labour had fought the referendum on a pro working class position of leave the space for such a racist campaign by the Tories and UKIP would have been squeezed. Instead they not only surrenderd the ground to the racists and the right but ended up labelling leavers as racist and then by calling for a second referendum put the 'nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant ' prime minister into office. You get what you sow.

 

[The39thStep]

No. All that demonstrates is that more people wanted it than didn't: it says nothing about the rationale for doing it. Nor, even, that the decision to leave will achieve the things those who voted for it claim to want it to achieve.


Bullshit. Saying a vote or a decision is flawed or wrong is "anti-democratic" is just idiocy.

Remember, after all, that Hitler got voted into power. Would it have been "anti-democratic" to call out the National Socialist party for its actions and views, too?

Hitler=Johnson

 

[scifisam]

I must have read too much into your post .

The process actually started last year , tomorrow is the transition year so nothing changes anyway .Here is the most recent update on progress re settled status The progress of the EU Settlement Scheme so far

I'm not sure I am complacent my point is that both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .We should make all parties stick to it and afford assistance to those who for what ever reason find the processes difficult or problematic. which ever nationality they are and where ever they live.

Yes, the process started last year - that means it's only just started. It's still a new thing. And has no real effect until tomorrow.

We should make both parties stick to it? If the Tories decide not to, they won't. After Windrush, Grenfell, and Johnson's out and out racist remarks, the Tories increased their vote. If they decide to shaft a few more dirty foreigners there won't be anything we can do to stop them, and a significant proportion of the population will back them. You're delusional if you think "we" have any power to make them do anything.

 

[editor]

So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?

I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.

So you think that the simplistic non-binding vote - and the well-funded misinformation campaigns behind it - was some kind of poster boy for the democratic process?

 

[sleaterkinney]

So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?

I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.

So the Tory party won the last election, does that mean I have to support them?. Is that how it works?.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So the Tory party won the last election, does that mean I have to support them?. Is that how it works?.

You should have a picture of Boris Johnson above your mantelpiece.

 

[brogdale]

A third of Asian and black people voted leave, dunno exactly what the figures work out in hundreds of thousands but I'd say not just a few. In fact there are many examples of leave voting areas with substantial BAME populations Slough, Bradford, Luton, even in London Hillingdon . Research into motivation for BAME leave voters revealed sovereignty , control of borders, anti muslim attitudes in Europe and unfair discrimination in immigration as factors. The issue about motivation of BAME remain voters was mainly influenced by the justified perception that the Tory and UKIP led leave campaign was racist, it wasnt a vote to endorse the EU. Of course if Labour had fought the referendum on a pro working class position of leave the space for such a racist campaign by the Tories and UKIP would have been squeezed. Instead they not only surrenderd the ground to the racists and the right but ended up labelling leavers as racist and then by calling for a second referendum put the 'nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant ' prime minister into office. You get what you sow.

It's certainly fair to say that elements of the Leave campaigns were content to stoke and harvest BAME resentment about the immigration regime they & theirs face compared with the FoM for predominantly white EU nationals.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's certainly fair to say that elements of the Leave campaigns were content to stoke and harvest BAME resentment about the immigration regime they & theirs face compared with the FoM for predominantly white EU nationals.

And given that remain outnumbered leave by around 2 to 1 among that section of the population, I think it's fair to say that it didn't work very well.

 

[brogdale]

And given that remain outnumbered leave by around 2 to 1 among that section of the population, I think it's fair to say that it didn't work very well.

In bald terms, yes, but that's quite a one-dimensional view.
Given the overwhelmingly urban/metropolitan context for the vast majority of the BAME vote, 1/3 L might be regarded as working very well. In such a marginal result...every little helped, no?

 

[The39thStep]

Yes, the process started last year - that means it's only just started. It's still a new thing. And has no real effect until tomorrow.

We should make both parties stick to it? If the Tories decide not to, they won't. After Windrush, Grenfell, and Johnson's out and out racist remarks, the Tories increased their vote. If they decide to shaft a few more dirty foreigners there won't be anything we can do to stop them, and a significant proportion of the population will back them. You're delusional if you think "we" have any power to make them do anything.

I'm not convinced that the Tories have any motivation to alter the settled status scheme which is part of the withdrawal agreement and there is still all of this year untill the deadline and its been suggested that there might even be a further grace period of six months after that. I suppose your last sentence hits on the difference between me and you then. If I feel strongly about something then I try and do something about it with others who feel the same way.

 

[MrSki]

I

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In bald terms, yes, but that's quite a one-dimensional view.
Given the overwhelmingly urban/metropolitan context for the vast majority of the BAME vote, 1/3 L might be regarded as working very well. In such a marginal result...every little helped, no?

Why? They're also more likely to be working class and to have reason to feel fucked over and alienated by the current system. Yet taken as a crudely drawn group, they were way out from the national average.

That's a massive stretch.

 

[editor]

I

A racist cunt celebrating another racist cunt in the name of Brexit. All rather fitting.

 

[brogdale]

Why? They're also more likely to be working class and to have reason to feel fucked over and alienated by the current system. Yet taken as a crudely drawn group, they were way out from the national average.

That's a massive stretch.

Yes, but given the result was based on the single 'national' constituency, and Leave won...it's not a massive stretch to say that the BAME L vote worked perfectly well for the Leave campaigners.

 

[sleaterkinney]

You should have a picture of Boris Johnson above your mantelpiece.

It's the will of the people!.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Yes, but given the result was based on the single 'national' constituency, and Leave won...it's not a massive stretch to say that the BAME L vote worked perfectly well for the Leave campaigners.

That's misusing the stats. It's like pointing at the 5 per cent black women in the US who voted for Trump and saying that their votes helped. It's a mad conclusion to take from the result - the conclusion to take from the result is that Trump won despite failing miserably among black people in general and black women in particular. It's not so different here albeit with less extreme numbers - leave still won despite failing to persuade the majority of BAME people that leave was a good idea, even when the poor and marginalised are over-represented in that grouping and it ought to provide fertile ground for feeding resentment against the status quo.

 

[brogdale]

That's misusing the stats. It's like pointing at the 5 per cent black women in the US who voted for Trump and saying that their votes helped. It's a mad conclusion to take from the result - the conclusion to take from the result is that Trump won despite failing miserably among black people in general and black women in particular. It's not so different here albeit with less extreme numbers - leave still won despite failing to persuade the majority of BAME people that leave was a good idea, even when the poor and marginalised are over-represented in that grouping and it ought to provide fertile ground for feeding resentment against the status quo.

Fair points and it is, of course, all academic without first having some inkling of what % BAME target the Leave campaigns hoped to achieve with their lines about the unfairness of EU FoM vrs the hostile environment.
That said, 30% or whatever it was...was enough.

 

[existentialist]

Hitler=Johnson

I'm not saying that. The fact that you are, or are trying to imply that I am, doesn't speak all that well for your argument.

 

[souljacker]

I went for a drink in Wetherspoons a while back, with quite a few other people. We’d been there for a long time when somebody told us that we would take a vote on going elsewhere. A slim majority voted to leave the pub, but lots of people didn’t vote (they were in the loo, outside for a ciggy, too sozzled etc) or they weren’t allowed to vote because they were too young, or even worse, foreign. The trouble is that some of those who voted to leave wanted to go to the Rose and Crown, others to the Blacksmiths arms, some for a pub crawl and some just wanted to go to the Co-op for some carry-outs. Years later some of those who voted have died, a whole lot more have grown up and can now legally buy alcohol, but their views aren’t counted. It’s raining outside. But we’ve been told by the landlord that we’ve got to leave because that’s democracy. Anyone else ever encountered such a bizarre situation?

One thing that hopefully Friday will sort out, is that we won't get any more of these wank analogies.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Fair points and it is, of course, all academic without first having some inkling of what % BAME target the Leave campaigns hoped to achieve with their lines about the unfairness of EU FoM vrs the hostile environment.
That said, 30% or whatever it was...was enough.

Looking at the numbers, it is true that if every single BAME voter had voted remain, then remain might have squeaked home. That only really shows how close the vote was, though, given we're talking about a sub-group of less than 10 per cent of the population.

But this isn't even like the trump situation. This is voting on an idea rather than a person, and any grouping with more than 2-1 in either direction on an idea like that is very significant. That's the story told by brexit - that the uk is divided and polarised along a number of different intersecting lines, relating to, among other things, ethnicity, class, geography, property, and age. And the brexit process thus far has only served to widen those divides.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

One thing that hopefully Friday will sort out, is that we won't get any more of these wank analogies.

I wouldn’t bet on it