Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.

[The39thStep]

I think it's a shitty term for the same reason I think this triumphalist bellend jamboree in Parliament Square is shit - a lot of people, particularly immigrants whose status has been in limbo for years, have some very serious worries about Brexit, but the language of the Daily Express etc. dismisses them all as Remoaner losers moaning about Brexit and people should think twice about using it.

Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around the staus of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU states was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not sure many people have either tbh.

 

[The39thStep]

Brexit Celebration Day in London: a bit like a team who narrowly won the FA cup via a dodgy decision deciding to hold a victory parade in their opponent's city

Really not sure if Man Utd comparisons are that appropriate tbh

 

[existentialist]

Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around the staus of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU states was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not sure many people have either tbh.

I find myself wondering what exactly "move on" is meant to mean in this situation? Because, absent the shuffling of a few bits of legalities and paperwork, nothing has fundamentally changed. Brexit, contrary to the fondest beliefs of its supporters, is not some kind of instant liberation, but the beginning of a process...a process which, many predict, may well result in significant, and possibly negative, economic and social consequences. That problem will remain after Brexit Day just as much as it did before. People saying "and this is exactly the consequence we were warning of" is not remoaners not moving on, it's people who were able to look past the fantastical promises of the Leave tendency to the real, practical problems.

And, of course, in this fool's paradise and hall of mirrors, any such comment, no matter how legitimate, will be turned around and used to explain why the almost-inevitable negative consequences of Brexit start to manifest are somehow because not enough people had faith in the whole business, and all those remoaners are why it's not going so well. Let's face it, that process started when the first Brexit supporter jeered "We won. Get over it" on the day after the referendum.

 

[scifisam]

Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around the staus of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU states was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not sure many people have either tbh.

It's used for everyone who's disappointed about Brexit happening, not just those who constantly talk about it.

And that's ridiculously fucking optimistic about the fate of EU citizens under a Tory government that's gone far more right wing and is also highly incompetent. Yeah, they're the people to trust with the future of immigrants all right

 

[editor]

The Windrush scandal was appaulling however I honestly dont think it was motivated by a decision to leave the EU.If anything one of the issues around the EU was that it gave more right to citizens in the EU than it did to citizens of the Commonweath and former Commonwealth states.This was a particular issue cited by Asain and Black leavers.

Well, there may be another one coming right up because of Brexit

Leaked document reveals Brexit could trigger a Windrush scandal for EU citizens

EU citizens could face 'another Windrush' scandal over its plans to end free movement of EU citizens overnight.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[SpookyFrank]

Cant see it as anything but a general term for remainers that wouldnt move on after the referendum tbh and the issue around the staus of EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU states was always going to be if you have the right paperwork you'll stay.I've no time for the Express etc what so ever and I'm not sure many people have either tbh.

What's the right paperwork? Nobody got 'paperwork' when they arrived here. Considering a lot of people voted leave to get rid of immigrants and for no other reason than that, and considering the demand to end free movement has dragged the entire process rightwards to the point where large numbers of people would be happy with no deal provided free movement was ended, I really don't think it's unreasonable for people to be concerned about whether they'll be allowed to stay here.

 

[flypanam]

That Romford party really is an unstoppable farce meeting the immovable abject.

 

[The39thStep]

What's the right paperwork? Nobody got 'paperwork' when they arrived here. Considering a lot of people voted leave to get rid of immigrants and for no other reason than that, and considering the demand to end free movement has dragged the entire process rightwards to the point where large numbers of people would be happy with no deal provided free movement was ended, I really don't think it's unreasonable for people to be concerned about whether they'll be allowed to stay here.

Frank , we arent going to agree but you wanted for what ever reason to remain and I voted to leave .I believe a government whether Tory or Labour should carry out the decision of a national referendum , you dont.
A couple of things though , no one is suggesting that its unreasonable for people to be to be concerned about their future ,especially with a media fuelled by speculative and sensational reports of deportations of both EU and UK citizens living abroad. Until the dust settled over no deal or deal things could appear to be unclear. I'm not sugesting everthing is rosy ( theres an article in the Guardian that shows many people affected aren't clear at all on what the withdrawal agreement says Britons in EU remain fearful of post-Brexit healthcare and pension provisions). Despite your suggestion about lots of people/process dragged rightwards/ happy with no deal /no free movement what we have is a withdrawal agreement that attempts to protects the existing rights of EU and UK citizens in a reciprocal manne negotiated between the EU and the UJ.I'm sure there are problems with the process both here and in the EU but both parties have offered assistance to those who have problems with the process but that is the aim. The paperwork issue actually varies from state to state . The Uk introduced settled status and presettled for EU citizens , 75% of which have applied. EU states vary but in the vast majority of cases its a residency permit varying in length often having to be renewed every five years or ten, something that UK citizens and often EU citizens living in many EU states have been required to have had when they arrived. This was even before we had a referendum. Those who wish to be resident in the UK or EU from countries outside the EU face far more barriers even if they have family in the UK/EU who are British/EU citizens.

 

[The39thStep]

Well, there may be another one coming right up because of Brexit

Leaked document reveals Brexit could trigger a Windrush scandal for EU citizens

EU citizens could face 'another Windrush' scandal over its plans to end free movement of EU citizens overnight.

www.businessinsider.com

There could be but the thrust of the report written way before the withdrawal agreement simply called for a further four month extension after October 31st 2020

 

[SpookyFrank]

Frank , we arent going to agree but you wanted for what ever reason to remain and I voted to leave .I believe a government whether Tory or Labour should carry out the decision of a national referendum , you dont.

Don't put words in my mouth. Being concerned about the fate of people who have built lives here in good faith does not mean I don't want the referendum result to be respected. I voted remain because I didn't want the tories in charge of the leaving process, because I knew we'd get shit like exactly what you're doing now where a vote to leave the EU is conflated with a vote to end freedom of movement, and to disregard or diminish the rights of people from other EU states who have built lives here in good faith. Those people are my biggest concern at the moment because they're the most immediately vulnerable. The tories have already deported hundreds or thousands of people who had lived here for decades, even some who were born here, because they didn't have a piece of paperwork that never existed in the first place. You can't just dismiss concerns about that sort of shit happening again as 'remoaning'.

I'm sure the withdrawal agreement makes lots of nice promises, but when you look at the reality lots of applications for 'settled status' have been effectively rejected, on what grounds nobody seems to know, and a fair few have just vanished into the system altogether. The government just voted down an amendment that would have given those with 'settled status' a single document stating their eligibility to live in the UK. Why would they object to providing such a document unless they wanted to keep the door open to the idea of rounding a few people up and deporting or detaining them? Whether as part of some damnfool game of chicken with the EU, to shore up a few votes with the gammons or just as a result of general bureaucratic incompetence. Look at who we've got running the home office ffs. We can safely rule out both basic decency and basic competence as factors affecting the fate of EU citizens.

 

[The39thStep]

I find myself wondering what exactly "move on" is meant to mean in this situation? Because, absent the shuffling of a few bits of legalities and paperwork, nothing has fundamentally changed. Brexit, contrary to the fondest beliefs of its supporters, is not some kind of instant liberation, but the beginning of a process...a process which, many predict, may well result in significant, and possibly negative, economic and social consequences. That problem will remain after Brexit Day just as much as it did before. People saying "and this is exactly the consequence we were warning of" is not remoaners not moving on, it's people who were able to look past the fantastical promises of the Leave tendency to the real, practical problems.

And, of course, in this fool's paradise and hall of mirrors, any such comment, no matter how legitimate, will be turned around and used to explain why the almost-inevitable negative consequences of Brexit start to manifest are somehow because not enough people had faith in the whole business, and all those remoaners are why it's not going so well. Let's face it, that process started when the first Brexit supporter jeered "We won. Get over it" on the day after the referendum.

You are probably one of the best examples of a remoaner tbh. .

 

[The39thStep]

It's used for everyone who's disappointed about Brexit happening, not just those who constantly talk about it.

And that's ridiculously fucking optimistic about the fate of EU citizens under a Tory government that's gone far more right wing and is also highly incompetent. Yeah, they're the people to trust with the future of immigrants all right

Yes they are right wing and incompetent but what is more right wing/incompetent about the settled status process compared to other residency processes in other countries?

 

[scifisam]

Yes they are right wing and incompetent but what is more right wing/incompetent about the settled status process compared to other residency processes in other countries?

I didn't say the settled status process was right wing and incompetent. It's annoying when you argue against something I haven't claimed. But so far it's very incompetent, like Frank just laid out above.

It's also impossible to know exactly what the process is really going to be like for EU citizens because it has only just started, and won't have any meaning until tomorrow when we officially leave.

It's really not "project fear" or being a remoaner to have a strong suspicion that a Tory govt that's gone way more right wing recently, and has deported Windrush generation citizens and denied citizenship even to some second generation Windrush citizens who were born in the UK, will proceed with settled status rights in a fair and equitable way. This government has a clear track record of treating immigrants callously and incompetently and there's no reason to think they'll suddenly stop being like that.

You seem very complacent about it. Just because you wanted Brexit shouldn't mean pretending that really obvious problems like this are unimportant or, like you claimed in a post above, just people being scared by newspapers.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Will there be an open top bus ?

Anyway, it’s time to start thinking about the spread on this years UK Eurovision dirge.

 

[The39thStep]

I didn't say the settled status process was right wing and incompetent. It's annoying when you argue against something I haven't claimed. But so far it's very incompetent, like Frank just laid out above.

It's also impossible to know exactly what the process is really going to be like for EU citizens because it has only just started, and won't have any meaning until tomorrow when we officially leave.

It's really not "project fear" or being a remoaner to have a strong suspicion that a Tory govt that's gone way more right wing recently, and has deported Windrush generation citizens and denied citizenship even to some second generation Windrush citizens who were born in the UK, will proceed with settled status rights in a fair and equitable way. This government has a clear track record of treating immigrants callously and incompetently and there's no reason to think they'll suddenly stop being like that.

You seem very complacent about it. Just because you wanted Brexit shouldn't mean pretending that really obvious problems like this are unimportant or, like you claimed in a post above, just people being scared by newspapers.

I must have read too much into your post .

The process actually started last year , tomorrow is the transition year so nothing changes anyway .Here is the most recent update on progress re settled status The progress of the EU Settlement Scheme so far

I'm not sure I am complacent my point is that both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .We should make all parties stick to it and afford assistance to those who for what ever reason find the processes difficult or problematic. which ever nationality they are and where ever they live.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The Windrush scandal was appaulling however I honestly dont think it was motivated by a decision to leave the EU.If anything one of the issues around the EU was that it gave more right to citizens in the EU than it did to citizens of the Commonweath and former Commonwealth states.This was a particular issue cited by Asain and Black leavers.

I wouldn't overstate that particular case if I were you, given how few Asian or black leavers there actually were. Most Asian and black people voted remain, and not out of some love of Europe or sense of a wider EU nationality or any of that guff, but precisely because they feared a general rise in racism and xenophobia in the UK. That was a particular issue cited by Asian and black 'remainers', and there were a lot more of them than 'leavers'.

And of course the Windrush scandal wasn't motivated by the decision to leave the EU. It predates it. It was, however, very much motivated by the scapegoating of immigration and immigrants that has been happening throughout the Tory 'austerity' period, and that formed a big part of the 'leave' campaign. And that is very much an ongoing and escalating process. We now have a prime minister who is nakedly racist and xenophobic, openly anti-immigrant (not just anti immigration, but anti immigrants, with their funny customs and cultures). And he has a big majority, and he has purged his party of what passed for its moderate wing. Just look at who is now Home Secretary.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not sure I am complacent my point is that both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .We should make all parties stick to it and afford assistance to those who for what ever reason find the processes difficult or problematic. which ever nationality they are and where ever they live.

How exactly do 'we' do that?

 

[flypanam]

Yes they are right wing and incompetent but what is more right wing/incompetent about the settled status process compared to other residency processes in other countries?

Just from experience, the incompetency of the scheme comes from the fact that decision seems to be made primarily on the decision of an algorithm, which as we all know isn't neutral but carries the ideological baggage of its creator/writer.

 

[editor]

I wouldn't overstate that particular case if I were you, given how few Asian or black leavers there actually were. Most Asian and black people voted remain, and not out of some love of Europe or sense of a wider EU nationality or any of that guff, but precisely because they feared a general rise in racism and xenophobia in the UK. That was a particular issue cited by Asian and black 'remainers', and there were a lot more of them than 'leavers'.

And that's exactly what happened with racist scumbags being emboldened by Brexit.

Ethnic minorities in Britain are facing rising and increasingly overt racism, with levels of discrimination and abuse continuing to grow in the wake of the Brexit referendum, nationwide research reveals.

Seventy-one percent of people from ethnic minorities now report having faced racial discrimination, compared with 58% in January 2016, before the EU vote, according to polling data seen by the Guardian.

The survey by Opinium suggests racists are feeling increasingly confident in deploying overt abuse or discrimination. The proportion of people from an ethnic minority who said they had been targeted by a stranger rose from 64% in January 2016 to 76% in February this year, when the most recent polling was carried out of 1,006 people weighted to be nationally representative.

The trend appears in line with crime figures, which have shown that racially motivated hate crime has increased every year since 2013, doubling to 71,251 incidents in England and Wales in 2018, according to the Home Office.

Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals

Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%

www.theguardian.com

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And that's exactly what happened with racist scumbags being emboldened by Brexit.

Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals

Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%

www.theguardian.com

Yes. Just as many of us on here were predicting before the vote. Yet somehow we're 'remoaners'.

I've yet to hear anyone on here who backs this absurd bollocks come up with any kind of an answer tho this. Tough shit. Chuck em under the bus.

 

[existentialist]

You are probably one of the best examples of a remoaner tbh. .

So a bit of namecalling, instead of any kind of debate.

Figures.

 

[existentialist]

Yes. Just as many of us on here were predicting before the vote. Yet somehow we're 'remoaners'.

I've yet to hear anyone on here who backs this absurd bollocks come up with any kind of an answer tho this. Tough shit. Chuck em under the bus.

It's always easier to fling a few insults around the place than to engage - and that's true of both sides. But yes - I am fairly appalled at the way that almost invariably, when I try to engage in a discussion with someone who's pro-Leave the debate either heads off into handwavery and generalities with no evidence, or namecalling. I would be really interested to hear someone who was pro-Leave actually offering some kind of factual basis for why it's better, and how life will be improved by it happening. In 3 years of Brexiting, it hasn't happened yet - at least that I've seen. And I am at least moderately capable of keeping an open mind some of the time.

 

[Pickman's model]

both the UK and the EU have agreed what essentially is a a clear reciprocal agreement about protecting the rights of citizens .

everyone knows how well the uk government looks after the rights of its own citizens, so it's clear how they'll look after the rights of those who aren't uk nationals

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I look around me and despair at the moment, tbh.

I only really have one question.

Looking around at the world right now, how bad do things have to get before those who voted 'leave' admit that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't such a good idea?

And no, I'm not saying that a 'remain' vote would have solved all problems. It wouldn't. But I am saying that the 'leave' vote created all manner of new problems without solving a damn thing. And guess what, some of us 'remoaners' predicted just that.

 

[Pickman's model]

I look around me and despair at the moment, tbh.

I only really have one question.

Looking around at the world right now, how bad do things have to get before those who voted 'leave' admit that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't such a good idea?

And no, I'm not saying that a 'remain' vote would have solved all problems. It wouldn't. But I am saying that the 'leave' vote created all manner of new problems without solving a damn thing. And guess what, some of us 'remoaners' predicted just that.

cassandra did it better

 

[8ball]

Looking around at the world right now, how bad do things have to get before those who voted 'leave' admit that maybe, just maybe, it wasn't such a good idea?

Let's put that question on hold til next April and see.

 

[rekil]

Anyway, it’s time to start thinking about the spread on this years UK Eurovision dirge.

Send Morrissey.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's always easier to fling a few insults around the place than to engage - and that's true of both sides. But yes - I am fairly appalled at the way that almost invariably, when I try to engage in a discussion with someone who's pro-Leave the debate either heads off into handwavery and generalities with no evidence, or namecalling. I would be really interested to hear someone who was pro-Leave actually offering some kind of factual basis for why it's better, and how life will be improved by it happening. In 3 years of Brexiting, it hasn't happened yet - at least that I've seen. And I am at least moderately capable of keeping an open mind some of the time.

Some on here wanted brexit because they want to see the EU fail.

I don't want the see the EU fail. I want to see it change, but not fail. It's easy to forget that nearly half of the countries in the EU have dictatorship in living memory, that countries with civil war in living memory are clamouring to join. Perspectives on EU collapse can be very different in those places. I would fear the collapse of the EU and its fallout.

But setting that aside, even on those terms, they're being proved wrong. Those clamouring to join still want to join. If anything, Brexit has given the EU the opportunity to demonstrate the benefits of membership. It may emerge from this mess in a stronger position. Even that was a misjudgement.

Other than that, I don't see any coherent argument for brexit.

 

[andysays]

Some on here wanted brexit because they want to see the EU fail.

I don't want the see the EU fail. I want to see it change, but not fail. It's easy to forget that nearly half of the countries in the EU have dictatorship in living memory, that countries with civil war in living memory are clamouring to join. Perspectives on EU collapse can be very different in those places. I would fear the collapse of the EU and its fallout.

But setting that aside, even on those terms, they're being proved wrong. Those clamouring to join still want to join. If anything, Brexit has given the EU the opportunity to demonstrate the benefits of membership. It may emerge from this mess in a stronger position. Even that was a misjudgement.

Other than that, I don't see any coherent argument for brexit.

So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?

I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So the fact that a majority voted for it in a referendum, and that both main parties accepted the result and fought the next GE on that basis doesn't constitute a coherent reason?

I agree that there will be problems with Brexit as it works out in practice but it's this sort of anti democratic bollocks which results in people being justly labelled Remoaners.

This brexit wasn't voted for in any referendum. This brexit with an end to free movement, an end to customs union, an end to alignment, the imposition of new borders, the imposition of new immigration restrictions, the imposition of new registers for foreigners. There was none of that in any referendum. The referendum said 'leave' therefore any kind of leave is more democratic than not leaving - that's a deeply anti-democratic argument. And that even assuming that you accept that the referendum itself was the pinnacle of democracy, which I don't.