Proper Tidy
Arsed
How much resentment is there over leave winning? A fuck load. That's how much.
Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.
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Yossarian
⏭️
Not that many people gave a shit about leaving the EU until the referendum but they certainly did afterward, and I don't think that genie was going to go back in the bottle whatever happened - if the Ukippers, etc. had seen Brexit slip from their grasp with a vote as narrow as 52-48 or 51-49, I think we might have seen a rise in hate crimes as some of them took their frustrations out on immmigrants.
MrSki
Who am I to say you're wrong
There is evidence of Russian interference but the Russia report into this is still awaiting publication after being blocked before the election & 31st January. Too late now really. Anything incriminating will have been redacted & it won't really change anything apart from the odd 'If only we had known...'
editor
hiraethified
I'm not so sure about that. Most UKIP voters were doddery old folks dreaming of the empire. Brexit was the clarion call for the far right to get involved.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
None here, but I've a feeling I'll have a lot of future resentment about how the tories are going to use it.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
Yes. The vote itself stoked up the fires, but they got a lot of fuel from the result. We wouldn't have ended up in a utopia all holding hands together, but there would have been a slight check on racism and xenophobia because there wouldn't have been a literal vote that said "we are not like you people." Even though that wasn't the reason most people on here voted Brexit, for some, it was.
(Though, TBH, you're phrasing things in a way that I don't use when talking to friends and I don't think anyone uses outside political forums.)
The only way it couldn't have affected the way people react to each other is if we lived in a vacuum. You do think that racism was on the rise, and there were many reasons for that. Brexit is another reason. You can't really discount Brexit without discounting everything else.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Imo it's mad to think a remain win would have made a material difference - cameron and osborne remain with political project intact, EU renewed to push on, more technocracy, no event to act as brake on that. But suppose we'll never know. What we do know is that this is happening across europe, across the world - no idea how people square that with laying brexit as a cause (not a symptom, or rather a related factor, which is very different and what I'm saying, to answer another point you make).
Anyway, there was a leave vote and at some point people have to deal with the political reality of that and move on
Anyway, there was a leave vote and at some point people have to deal with the political reality of that and move on
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There are case studies we can look at about how political victories to nationalist r/w causes affect immigrants and ethnic minorities, not just wrt the policies brought in by those victories, but wrt the actions of people against immigrants and ethnic minorities. The various town councils that have been won in France by the Front National are one such case study. With officialdom on their side, or at least the perception of it, hate crimes and just hateful actions that might fall below the level of crime increase. Those who would wish to act in that way are emboldened. That's not an abstract point, but a practical, factual one. Why would Brexit be any different?
It's a strange case that you're trying to make here, tbh: that political victory to a cause championed, among others, by anti-immigration nationalist groups doesn't make any difference to general racism or xenophobia, and more than that that the observed rise in general racism or xenophobia that has accompanied that victory would just have happened anyway.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
So the vote made no difference at all when it comes to racism and xenophobia? Reality doesn't seem to support that. A narrow remain vote wouldn't have had the outcomes you expect - that sounds more like a large remain vote outcome.
But, like you say, we all have to live with the outcomes. I would kinda like people to work together, but people on every side are making that really hard. The leavers are worst for this because you already got what you wanted - I mean, seriously, a party to celebrate something that won by such a narrow vote? Remain lost, so why shouldn't people who voted remain be allowed to be sad about it? That's what usually happens after a loss. Leavers won but some of them aren't happy to stop there.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Who do you mean when you say far right?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
As you said earlier, nothing happens in a vacuum. Everything affects everything. No idea why you think a narrow remain win would have resulted in anything different to a reinforced cameron govt and EU project. Lisbon was contested for instance, result the same. Was never going to be a big win either way.
As for second para, people who voted leave as one lump people who voted remain as one lump. What's the point. Biggest driver for leave was people being fucked off, odd to think that would suddenly change tbh. As for feeling sad, well ok but it's 2020 now.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not even sure if that's true tbh. The older people I know that voted leave - my parents and three or four others of retirement age - didn't do so because they were fucked off, not really. It was a driver, one of many, but the overwhelming rejection of it by under-25s (75% remain is a huge number, and young people voted remain in much bigger numbers everywhere - it's the one consistent demographic trend across the country) doesn't fit well with the idea of people being fucked off with, say, the neoliberal project, being a massive driver. Nearly two thirds labour voters voting remain doesn't fit well with that either, nor does 70 per cent BAME. Lots of people with reason one way or another to be fucked off voted remain, lots without much reason really, such as home-owning retired people, voted leave. The story just isn't that tidy.
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
"Liberal leavers" (most of 'em aren't liberals, but the name's stuck, so I'll run with it) share the frustration. In the aftermath of the referendum, Remain was dead as a movement: it was revived in 2018 solely because May had given remainers scraps. It was for the Vote Leave leadership to be magnanimous in their narrow victory, but instead of consolidating around the EFTA, they pushed for the hardest Brexit possible and left millions of pro-E.U. voters with nothing to lose.
What do we have left? If anything, now it's morphed into rejoin, Remain's hardened, and will soon be pushing hard not just to reclaim Britain's old, opt-out riddled transactional membership (which is in any case almost certainly gone for good), but to make rUK a fully integrated member of the bloc. They'll only be emboldened if Scotland leads the way back. This is exactly what I feared before the vote, and barring Al Johnson having a Damascene conversion to Norway*, don't see any way to stop it.
* Hey, maybe things are looking up.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
That's still entirely an option for any UK govt to pursue, of course. One of the irritating things about people continuing to talk about 'remoaners' is that it is gives an open goal to the 'brexit means brexit' wankers. There are still things I like, I want to continue, such as free movement across Europe to visit, work and study. Nothing that has happened so far rules that out, but the narrative from Johnson et all is that this is impossible, isn't real brexit blah blah blah. Let's not play into their hands here, eh?
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Would be delighted with Norway (my preferred option all along), and Johnson is of course indifferent so long as he stays PM: but that's why his road to the EFTA looks so treacherous. Sure, back in the indicative votes, 60-odd Tory MPs voted for an unamended E.E.A. Brexit, but they're not Johnson's key Tory backers, and at this point, I doubt even he could pull off a Nixon-to-China pivot.
Likelier is Brussels screwing a FTA with equivalence baked in out the U.K., either before or after a bungled no-deal (sorry, "Australia-style deal"), then expanding its scope as the economic shockwaves hit Britain, until they've got the level of market access they want, and whatever's left of the U.K.'s thoroughly sick of the whole endeavour.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I was chatting to friend at work today. He has complicated background. One side of his family is asian. Some of that side of family voted leave. When he asked them why it came down to them fearing that a Remain vote would have made things worse as you say above.
So it was "pull up the drawbridge" and vote for more immigration controls.
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
I think a narrow remain win would have meant racists and xenophobes would not have felt as emboldened and empowered as they do now.
And, well, I didn't talk about leavers as one lump of people. I said that "some of them," some of the leavers, aren't happy to accept that they won and try to work towards anything. Some. No lumping there.
I was thinking specifically of the kind of people who'd actually go to a party to celebrate an issue that is so divisive, and the people who cheer them on. I know leave voters that I respect but I doubt any of them would have gone near Parliament Square on the 31st or posted in support of the people who did go there.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Anyway I think while being a remainer or leaver is a thing, an identity, there is sweet fa chance of common ground. One thing both have in common is that the people who subscribe to their vote as a political identity, whichever way, are very odd and politically dangerous
The interference with the Brexit vote and the nurturing of the Alt-right is covered here :
Cambridge Analytica Whistleblower
This is getting interesting: “[Bannon] got it immediately. He believes in the whole Andrew Breitbart doctrine that politics is downstream from culture, so to change politics you need to change culture. And fashion trends are a useful proxy for that. Trump is like a pair of Uggs, or Crocs...
www.urban75.net
This format of psy-ops very effectivly swung the election,the US election , and many others all over the world.
Not traditional corruption of democracy but a new iteration of the ability to manufacture concent.
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
Talk of "leavers" and "remainers" is always going to be problematic. Some people who voted remain or leave are cunts, some are not. And that "Brexit Day Party" on telly was more like a far right rally than a genuine knees-up and is not really representative of most people who voted to leave.
The interference with the Brexit vote and the nurturing of the Alt-right is covered here :
Cambridge Analytica Whistleblower
This is getting interesting: “[Bannon] got it immediately. He believes in the whole Andrew Breitbart doctrine that politics is downstream from culture, so to change politics you need to change culture. And fashion trends are a useful proxy for that. Trump is like a pair of Uggs, or Crocs...
This format of psy-ops very effectivly swung the election,the US election , and many others all over the world.
Not traditional corruption of democracy but a new iteration of the ability to manufacture concent.
The sheeple really need to wake up to this
scifisam
feck! arse! girls! drink!
You cut out the rest of what I said:
- Ie, the leavers that are making it hard for people to work together. A specific subset of people. Otherwise I wouldn't have written "the."
Also:
Some of them.
Of course, you could still pretend that I was lumping all people who voted leave together, despite that not being the sort of thing I've done on this thread. I'm bored of it now.
philosophical
Well-Known Member
I have yet to hear a leave voter actually say 'I didn't know what I was voting for, still don't, but I want it anyway'.
It is not something I have heard said, but it is something that seems to be happening.
Leave voters seem to believe something is happening because Boris Johnson says it is, the detail does not concern them.
It is not something I have heard said, but it is something that seems to be happening.
Leave voters seem to believe something is happening because Boris Johnson says it is, the detail does not concern them.
editor
hiraethified
Has anyone made such a daft claim? But I'm in no doubt that it's contributed to the growing racism in this country.
Humberto
Relax
No, soz
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
And, as the example you give above illustrates, and posters from the EU living here have testified also, the nature of that growing racism has been shaped by the brexit process - the 'Speak English, England for the English' brand of racism that is on the rise.
Mr Moose
What the hell are we supposed to tell the kids?
And it’s simply not like people in the UK to be obsessed with the war.
But really? I’m a little bit sceptical. Did Ann make a complaint and how was it dealt with? Pretty hardcore calling a small child a ‘Nazi’. Maybe I’m in denial, but you’d expect action.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
There's a German poster on here who moved back to Germany because he saw a rise in exactly this kind of thing. Not going to tag him and drag him into this sewer of a discussion, but regardless of this particular situation, do you question the general thrust? As for expecting action, the quoted piece doesn't say what action was taken. Of course most people would be horrified by disgusting incidents like this. That's not really the point, is it? Doesn't take 'most people' to ruin someone's day.
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