So you have no realistic alternative then?
Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.
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chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Which may well be true, to a point. The problem being us that these values are perfectly compatible with, and promoted by, elements of capital.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Yep.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well, there's certainly the opp to do so given that the unelected and democratically unaccountable leaders wasted no time in using the UK exit to aggressively push the ever closer union agenda. What will that mean for the w/c within the EU, those they intend to chase to the bottom of the barrel externally, what it mean in terms of extension of fortress europe further and further in to africa, the use of eufrica as a cheap workforce brought in and sold them sent back like slave traders of old, whilst more and more neo-liberal imperatives imposed on these societies as price of basic trade.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
You know this is just reinforcing my point don't you
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
My instant reaction if somebody asked me what I thought of the EU would be wonder why they wanted to know, and assume that it was for some factional goal. I have to feel pretty comfortable in a situation - or just not care - before I would be prepared to say just anything. I don't think this is very unusual and I don't know how long it will take for it to not be an issue, but it will definitely be years.
What are you proposing to move forward on? It’s obviously very easy to be critical of the EU. The main issue to me is what now after we have so called “left” the EU? How do you stop the current government from delivering the worst of what they promise and from the economy tanking and more people becoming unemployed and austerity becoming worse? How does focusing on the flaws of the EU help with that?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
In terms of what it means for the w/c left in the EU, thought the last sentence of this little excert from Macron's facebook post on friday interesting
If you say so. To me it just looks like you have nothing to say.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Oh god yeah, i don't mean polling/bothering on the street, i mean people i know and have been working with for donkeys years or been in my/our orbit.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
I suppose one question is why did much of the 'left' end up wedded to the EU and the extent to which that left had shifted its aims towards liberalism, progress and state/top-down multiculturalism. A shift that certainly left the Labour Party in a position where it seemed unable to take even the most basic sensible steps around Brexit (right through to the gen election idiocies). Or alternatively, how that same left has lost the ability to have better goals and a better politics.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
That's interesting.
Makes me think that perhaps the willingness to critique the supra-state comes that much more naturally to those who share an antipathy to states in general.
toblerone3
Grrrrr
This^ I was going to post something identical to this but you did it for me. As someone who's basic position is "remain and reform" I would like to talk much more about the "reform" aspect, but the discourse on Brexit meant that you just end up defending the EU more nuanced and informed debate on reform gets lost.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I wasn't proposing, that was the point. I was asking what common grounds there are between a remain left and a leave left. I look forward to people like you being as active out there as you you were opposing cuts etc as you were before the referendum.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I don't really see how - it just reflects that I assume they're likely to be asking it so they can have a go if I'm not on their side.
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Nah.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
You may well be right; I'm not in position to comment on that, having never really adopted a 'side' on the question.
Anju
Well-Known Member
That's probably partially because a lot of people didn't / don't fully understand how and why the EU works, on both sides.
I've read quite a lot about fortress Europe since looking past the very few MSM things I had seen, including some links you posted. The EU approach to migration is shameful and inexcusable.
The thing I can't see is what the alternative to the EU is. Surely if migration policy was left to individual nations it would be even worse for those trying to get to counties in Europe. It would be a fast race to the bottom as whichever country had the best registration and settlement system would attract disproportionate numbers and it would spiral ever downwards from there. We'd end up with Johnson arming Britain first on their Dover beach patrols.
In terms of what people might do to change things it's difficult to know. A bit of eye opening needs to occur. I've never seen anything on social media about what the EU is doing regarding migration and very little in normal media, print, online or TV. Everyone I have spoken to about this aspect of the EU has been shocked and wanted to learn more, including a couple of friends who came here as refugees in the 80s. You assume that people don't care or are OK to let things slide. I think people would care. The reality just needs to be a bit more in your face for people, as evidenced by the reactions to things like that picture of the drowned child on the beach. The reaction fades because it's not something people want to confront and they can forget about it because it's filed away as an anomaly and not as an event that's happening daily because of EU policy.
EU elections seem like a possible route to gaining some influence (not now in Britain of course). Maybe an alliance of smaller groups involved in supporting refugees in individual countries and attempts to work with and support those groups within the EU who advocate for better migration policy.
Whatever the best way forward is I don't think Britain leaving the EU is a part of it.
Nothing else from the lexit perspective seems as clear cut. State aid rules are not as cut and dry as they're portrayed by the left and a majority of cases opposed by the EU are won by the country wanting to intervene. As a country trying to get trade deals we're going to be more likely to have to follow any restrictions where as a long term member of the EU we would have a better chance of bending or changing rules to achieve what we want. Basically we will be subject to anti competition rules wherever we go so why not stay in a position where we have the most leeway and influence.
You say that remain voters haven't offered any suggestions on how to improve the EU when at the same time claiming that it's not up to leave voters to offer solutions to the problems they have contributed to and the need for collective action on some issues is totally ignored.
two sheds
Least noticed poster 2007
Indeed. Similarly I've not seen many advantages of the EU pointed out by Leavers. It's a function of having arguments rather than discussions.
I have a feeling Remainers see the advantages of a 'socially liberal' EU while Leavers see the disadvantages of a 'politically liberal = neoliberal' that the EU brings by stealth.
A country so vile it puts children in cages, pumps them full of mind altering drugs and then boasts about it.
A country that is institutionaly racist and seems to promote sexual abuse and random homacide .
America basicaly .
YouSir
Retired from Urban
Are you aware of what the EU does with non EU refugees and asylum seekers?
rekil
to menny cranks
The one who wagged her finger at Farage here.
Fine Gael MEPs criticised for voting against move to enhance rescue operations for migrants
The EU parliament rejected a vote asking member states to step up efforts to save asylum seekers in the Mediterranean.
www.thejournal.ie
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
On Brexit day I did get a wider view. ( look I come from area that was 80% Rmain. It is unusual for me to meet any one who suppports Brexit.)
A van driver I help sometimes said to me ( and I didnt bring it up) on Friday that he thought it was ok leaving. He isnt normally one to talk about politics. If UK had stayed in EU he would not have been that bothered. He thought he might go to celebrate in Parliament square.
In his view the upside of Brexit was that immigrants would start to leave this country. Leaving more work for British workers like us.
He said he'd been talking to the Poles and Brazilian drivers and they were thinking of going now Brexit is going ahead.
I did have to remind him my partner is one of these migrants. He of course didn't mean my partner.
I found the whole conversation depressing. Brexit meant that he could come out with this to me like it was ok. He's not an out and out racist . We work for companies that are spread across EU. Meet a lot of people from other countries.
It was him saying that the Brazilians might go that got me . This means he thought Brexit is message to people not to treat this country as their own as Boris said. This is the new normal now.
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I know a Hungarian driver at work who has British citizenship who hopes there will be less migrants now - the inference is the less pool of drivers available, the better it will be in the long run for job security and wages.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I wonder what his definition of "migrants" looks like.
You favour the US over the EU. Are you an arms manufacturer?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Are you a fifteen year old from 2003
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