Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Cognitive dissonance, the last refuge of the liberal
Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.
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keybored
Well done. You remember cat good.
We don't have a far right government, but you could look to Hungary to see how the EU "checks" its further-to-the-right and less democratic members.
Europe’s Failure to Protect Liberty in Hungary
An erosion of media freedoms in the country has continued with little punishment from the European Union, which professes to defend liberal values.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Depending on the point you want to prove, the EU appears to be simultaneously all-powerful and not powerful enough.We don't have a far right government, but you could look to Hungary to see how the EU "checks" its further-to-the-right and less democratic members.
Europe’s Failure to Protect Liberty in Hungary
An erosion of media freedoms in the country has continued with little punishment from the European Union, which professes to defend liberal values.www.theatlantic.com
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Or it exerts its power to defend or further the interests of capital but doesn't to protect the interests of labour, or vulnerable people, so on. That would be another reading.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
I did support Remain.
Does not mean to say I think the EU is great.
On workers rghts. This country should not have to depend on EU for them. Outside the EU its possible to elect government to pass laws to protect workers.
On economy. Fortunately the UK was not in the Eurozone. Greece is particular is case where elected left government was destroyed by EU. The economic crisis showed that the EU will impose austerity on a country even when its been rejected by the people of that member country. What was done to Greece was neo liberal austerity imposed on a country from above.
I was Remain as it was being pushed by the anti immigraton right in this country. I also didnt like that the residents of UK from other parts of EU did not get a vote in the Referendum.
Does not mean to say I think the EU is great.
On workers rghts. This country should not have to depend on EU for them. Outside the EU its possible to elect government to pass laws to protect workers.
On economy. Fortunately the UK was not in the Eurozone. Greece is particular is case where elected left government was destroyed by EU. The economic crisis showed that the EU will impose austerity on a country even when its been rejected by the people of that member country. What was done to Greece was neo liberal austerity imposed on a country from above.
I was Remain as it was being pushed by the anti immigraton right in this country. I also didnt like that the residents of UK from other parts of EU did not get a vote in the Referendum.
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FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Except when it does - GDPR for instance is directly in opposition to the interests of modern capitalists. Would that have been such a significant issue for them if it wasn't across a large number of profitable markets?
You'll excuse even the more cynical of people for preferring "occasionally and unreliably a positive influence" to "never a positive influence because it isn't there".
Proper Tidy
Arsed
Of course sometimes it's a positive influence. Like any govt. Not sure GDPR the best example. Firstly, it's a bit of a shit gain, all things considered. Secondly, it was about universalising data rules across the EU, to the advantage of european capital and to the disadvantage of non-EU capital.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Also improves the marketability of data as a legitimate asset/product. One too many Cambridge Analytica type situations and the whole thing might to start looking like a criminal enterprise/black market. That which is done by the book, no matter how shit the book may be, is worth more money.
Anju
Well-Known Member
Here's one thing that has already changed. Our leaving has been such a shambles that I doubt many people other than those in more senior positions in areas that have the potential to be affected have any real idea.
I'm surprised that those of a lexit disposition seem so certain that the institutions they are so opposed to will do the right thing by all us normal people.
https://www.thelocal.it/20200131/how-the-rules-for-italian-citizenship-change-for-brits-from-today
I'm surprised that those of a lexit disposition seem so certain that the institutions they are so opposed to will do the right thing by all us normal people.
https://www.thelocal.it/20200131/how-the-rules-for-italian-citizenship-change-for-brits-from-today
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What?
Proper Tidy
Arsed
I def have loads of faith in the institutions of british democracy, that's fundamental to my political viewpoint
So what’s your alternative? Do you “keep them in check”? How is that going for you with the Conservative party in charge for at least 15 years? While you might not agree with a bigger government keeping them in check surely it is better than just leaving it to the media (who generally don’t seem to care about what the government is doing) and a public vote every 5 years where recently there does not seem as if there is any chance of change. What have the EU stopped our government from doing that was aimed to be positive?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This post is literal evidence for my post earlier.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
See my earlier post about the pathetic passive mentality of relying on a bureaucracy to hold govt to account
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Hold on, no it isn't to the advantage of EU vs non-EU capital, but mostly it was an example of something that is now a bit better vs not existing at all. The point being that raising examples like Hungary or in fact plenty of other situations where the EU has done nothing to help doesn't do anything apart from attack a naive "the EU is just fabulous all the time" position which is a straw man.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Having GDPR is definitely better than not having GDPR, even if it could have been done better.
Proper Tidy
Arsed
It very clearly does advantage EU capital over non EU capital in terms of access to EU markets though. Which is the point of the EU
Anju
Well-Known Member
Just refering to posts that are claiming nothing has or will change before the end of the year.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
We don't see much criticism on here or elsewhere of the EU from people who voted remain, now matter how often we hear that it's not perfect. I'd say there's been pretty much a supportive silence and that all the bad things (not specified ever, and what they are going to be doing to oppose them) are the price they're prepared to pay for things which may have incidental benefits whilst not intending to do so, such as GDPR. I've been trying to get this supposed group of not-that keen on the EU but group to say a damn thing about this for three years to not a single response.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I dunno.
From memory, I think there's a few of us on here who take loosely "Lexity" positions but who voted Remain on the day for various reasons.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Me for a start.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I'm on about people who take clear remain positions not wishy washies like you. I've managed to get nothing at all out of them in three years - here or outwith.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I don't think it's surprising that in remain/leave threads people aren't going to criticise the EU a lot if they support a remain position. That's more about the dynamic of the discussion than anything else tbh. It doesn't mean that they don't have any criticisms.
I don't know what difference it would make if they did either. There'd be a lot of "see? see? how can you vote for that?" finger pointing, on the basis that a remain vote is intrinsically supporting everything the EU does, and that means you've lost the internet. I gave up bothering ages ago.
eta: there is always going to be an aspect of "the price you are prepared to pay", that in itself isn't a problem. I voted Labour ffs.
Gerry1time
Did a wee in Dirac's toilet
I just saw my Brexit supporting taxi driving friend again, and I asked how his party went on Friday night. He said it was good, but apparently he was a bit put out as there had been strangers there, who had come from as far away as a village five miles away. I’m beginning to understand why he may look at continental europeans a bit sceptically.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Of course, i shouldn't probably have mentioned 'on here'. I have been running around trying to find some common ground locally for stuff to move forward on based on common experiences and understandings of what the EU is and does (obv i only want the negative ones), and i've come up empty. I understand that polarisation is at work (and it's something i welcome) but to be so scared to criticise the EU now suggest to me either a wider political cowardice or a wider political stupidity. But yes, we are all a bit trapped in that way you suggest.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
All a bit Royston Vasey?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Perhaps now is precisely the time to open a (new) thread to discuss the supra-state, as we're no longer part of it?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
This has all got funnelled into the Brexit vote and events through to now, Labour's shambles over Brexit and the rest. But Brexit should just be a case study, even if it is a massive one. The bigger failure is the lack of a critique of neo liberalism inside the EU and outside - a failure that somehow left too many people open to seeing the EU as the repository of liberalism, 'progress' and multiculturalism. This, to me, just feels like a deeper failure of the left more generally. We came into the whole Brexit shitshow with both a lack of self confidence and dodgy politics. And, fwiw, Corbynism amplified rather than resolved those problems.
Not aimed at you by the way, just seemed a convenient point to park it.
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