Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.

[Manter]

What has changed?

When I travel out of Europe on say, Lufthansa, I arrive back in Frankfurt or Munich and feel that I am nearly home, I am in a country that has pretty much the same culture as that in which I was raised, I speak enough of the language to get by (order a set of bagpipes, at least), but not home, cos Germany is not home, it’s just far closer than where I have been, both physically and culturally. And it’s not going anywhere. The benefits of EU membership that we are losing, what are they? What will you no longer be able to do now we are out? Other than get a zero-hours or otherwise exploitative job in a country other than the UK.

Yesterday, if I collapsed in the airport I’d have the full German healthcare system looking after me, just because I have a piece of plastic in my wallet. I could decide to stay in Germany for up to three months on impulse, looking for a job. I could take up this imaginary job with minimum fuss and could rent or buy a house (theoretically), all under a simplified set of reciprocal tax arrangements. My son could be enrolled in school. I wouldn’t ever have to decide whether I was now British or German, and I could come and go as I wanted. I wouldn’t need to count days (though weirdly in NL I would, but that’s another story). I could change jobs if I decided I didn’t like the one I had: and if it all went horribly wrong I’d be entitled to basic social care (and full social security if I had been there long enough and registered).
We don’t know what the future will look like, but I’ve moved to non EU countries before and it requires visas, permissions, financial declarations, proof you can maintain your family, qualifying periods, employment restrictions, regulations about what you can do or not do when you’re there and what equipment you can take with you, how many days you can spend where....and I am still filing tax returns for somewhere I haven’t lived for 15 years, and get shit from border security every time I go back.

Hey, it may be fine. Almost certainly will be for people like me, even though I just lost my job for the second time for tedious brexity reasons. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, or the uncertainty it brings. And at a really fundamental level I liked being part of something bigger than this.... island. And nationalism and the sort of rhetoric we’ve seen for c the last 4 years makes my skin itch. (And anything that makes someone like Widdicombe happy makes me nervous)


incidentally, the rules on refugee passports changed without warning or communication on 18th January. A number of refugee friends found themselves unable to travel- it took me hours to find the documentation that had affected them, the Home Office didn’t give a shit. A Sudanese friend had his paperwork torn up in front of him, causing him no end of distress given what he’s been through. That sort of arbitrary cruelty to ‘others’ will, I fear, become more frequent now.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Still can today btw

 

[The39thStep]

Haven't seen this posted anywhere on here yet, but Brexit is clearly emboldening those who feel that people shouldn't speak their own language, if they want to, in their own home. They should speak the 'Queens (sic) English'.

'Happy Brexit Day' signs at Norwich flats say 'only speak English'

The signs, which say "we do not tolerate" non-English speakers, have been reported to police.

www.bbc.co.uk

Why am I not surprised? Imagine what it feels like to be, say, Polish or Syrian, and to read that.

Is this in just one block of flats in Winchester or is it a nation wide ?

 

[oryx]

It's just one block, in Norwich, called Winchester Tower.

 

[kebabking]

Is this in just one block of flats in Winchester or is it a nation wide ?

Its one block of flats.

 

[RTWL]

stop. STOP! You people are trying to deny that the right wing in this country are feeling empwered ? Or just pointlessly nitpicking . If you havent experienced the recent surge of right wing empowerment in your lives then i guess you are not working class ?

 

[Azrael]

I voted leave and would again. When was a smooth withdrawal from the EU with no victims going to be on the table? If you havered so as not to throw some people under the bus felt like you were just throwing others under (or into the sea) instead, so I stuck to the basic question, in or out. The consequences of a remain victory for further centralisation and technocratic end-running round democracy were also a consideration.
The form it's taken is hardly something to celebrate, but I'm pleased that it's delivered a check to the EU project.

How does this hard-headed analysis stand up on its own terms?

Fortress Europe's completely undaunted by Brexit: its only achievement will be to entrench further immigrants controls. A smooth exit was available -- E.E.A. via the EFTA -- but given the anti-immigrant fixation of major Leave campaigns, wasn't likely to be delivered by them.

As for this botched Brexit checking the E.U., it's had the opposite effect: secession's become toxic across the bloc, with even openly nativist parties quietly shelving their exit policies; and without Whitehall blocking them, the Federalists can push ahead with their integrationist agenda.

Better yet for Brussels, they get to look forward to the U.K. breaking apart and a cowed, broken England begging her way back in down the line, after which secession's viewed as about as live an issue as retaking the Thirteen Colonies. This omelette's not worth the eggs.

 

[Manter]

Still can today btw

Some of it you can. Some of it you can’t. Some is definitely going. Some of it we have no idea what’s going to happen.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Some of it you can. Some of it you can’t. Some is definitely going. Some of it we have no idea what’s going to happen.

Every example you cited 'yesterday' is the same today. EHIC still valid, visa free travel fine, anybody moving to an EU country for work still can and will be able to apply for settled status. Which ones fall into your 'some of it you can't' category?

But what do I know, I'm just an angry bloke indistinguishable from some far right dick

 

[Ax^]

think you brought class into it before manter

stop being so obtuse and explain what the benifits will be after the transitional period

We had about 8 fucking years of this idea the country can gang press the EU into meeting the UK demands

each time we been told to get to fuck ffs the refrendum only happened because cameron failed to renegation the deal with Europe

what the difference now

 

[Proper Tidy]

I called her a middle class knobend yeah. Cos she is middle class, don't think she disputes that, and cos it's middle class people who can't seem to tell the difference between far right arguments for brexit and left criticisms of EU. The knobend bit was justified given that little dig. No idea where the class reference in last couple of posts were and didn't really understand rest of post, 8 years what

 

[Ax^]

the class refrence was only due to your interactions with manter..

the rest was more pointing out what is the fucking benift for working class people from the exit

the idea that Farage, Banks, Martin, Widdecome and Boris are talking to the working class is the biggest lie

since the devil told us he did not exist

 

[two sheds]

I called her a middle class knobend yeah. Cos she is middle class, don't think she disputes that, and cos it's middle class people who can't seem to tell the difference between far right arguments for brexit and left criticisms of EU. The knobend bit was justified given that little dig. No idea where the class reference in last couple of posts were and didn't really understand rest of post, 8 years what

Didn't you say she 'stinks' of being middle class?

That was really fucking nasty if it was you and deserves an apology.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Didn't you say she 'stinks' of being middle class?

That was really fucking nasty if it was you and deserves an apology.

No

 

[two sheds]

Ah ok apologies from me then. I saw someone say it though and whoever it was should apologize.

 

[Azrael]

[...] We had about 8 fucking years of this idea the country can gang press the EU into meeting the UK demands [...]

And this political snake oil's as far from patriotic as it gets. International trade's a brutal game: ironically, Britain's been so long shielded by the Common Market firewall that the ERG mob's forgotten just how brutal. True patriots wouldn't expose their nation and its people to these forces needlessly.

It has nothing to do with E.U. membership, either: many longtime leavers have been advocating a Brexit that takes account of inescapable realities of geography and economic imbalance, but so far, they've been sidelined. The only hope for a successful Brexit's that they're finally brought in from the cold.

 

[Manter]

Every example you cited 'yesterday' is the same today. EHIC still valid, visa free travel fine, anybody moving to an EU country for work can and will be able to apply for settled status. Which ones fall into your 'some of it you can't'?

But what do I know, I'm just an angry bloke indistinguishable from some far right dick

Er, your last line is projecting a bit? I’ve never said you are far right! I’m just not sure why you’re so angry. You’ve won. Whatever I say is just background noise really- we have left, there is a transition period which isn’t long enough to get any meaningful arrangements in place so we will be completely cut free and on our own this time next year. It doesn’t matter what I think about it- it’s done. I can’t change it, I can just live with it, or leave myself.

The things that have already gone are ability to work in Europe hassle free and ability to buy or rent property hassle free. Everything else we know will go in the next 12 months unless they can come up with a deal. Which is hugely unlikely...

 

[Manter]

And yes I am middle class, always have been middle class (whatever definition you care to use)- would be dishonest and a bit silly to deny it. I know perfectly well what the differences are between lexit and ukipy reasons are for leave vote; but I don’t buy them and think they’ve both brought us to the same place, which I am not OK with.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Er, your last line is projecting a bit? I’ve never said you are far right! I’m just not sure why you’re so angry. You’ve won.

I'm not sure why you’re still so angry, mind- surely having been given what you wanted you and Marty and the like

Righto ()

The things that have already gone are ability to work in Europe hassle free and ability to buy or rent property hassle free.

No they haven't. Might struggle to get a mortgage or long term let I suppose, although probably not given you can still apply for settled status in any member state you move to before end of 2020.

 

[Supine]

Yesterday, if I collapsed in the airport I’d have the full German healthcare system looking after me, just because I have a piece of plastic in my wallet. I could decide to stay in Germany for up to three months on impulse, looking for a job. I could take up this imaginary job with minimum fuss and could rent or buy a house (theoretically), all under a simplified set of reciprocal tax arrangements. My son could be enrolled in school. I wouldn’t ever have to decide whether I was now British or German, and I could come and go as I wanted. I wouldn’t need to count days (though weirdly in NL I would, but that’s another story). I could change jobs if I decided I didn’t like the one I had: and if it all went horribly wrong I’d be entitled to basic social care (and full social security if I had been there long enough and registered).
We don’t know what the future will look like, but I’ve moved to non EU countries before and it requires visas, permissions, financial declarations, proof you can maintain your family, qualifying periods, employment restrictions, regulations about what you can do or not do when you’re there and what equipment you can take with you, how many days you can spend where....and I am still filing tax returns for somewhere I haven’t lived for 15 years, and get shit from border security every time I go back.

Hey, it may be fine. Almost certainly will be for people like me, even though I just lost my job for the second time for tedious brexity reasons. Doesn’t mean I have to like it, or the uncertainty it brings. And at a really fundamental level I liked being part of something bigger than this.... island. And nationalism and the sort of rhetoric we’ve seen for c the last 4 years makes my skin itch. (And anything that makes someone like Widdicombe happy makes me nervous)


incidentally, the rules on refugee passports changed without warning or communication on 18th January. A number of refugee friends found themselves unable to travel- it took me hours to find the documentation that had affected them, the Home Office didn’t give a shit. A Sudanese friend had his paperwork torn up in front of him, causing him no end of distress given what he’s been through. That sort of arbitrary cruelty to ‘others’ will, I fear, become more frequent now.

The problem you have posting this is that leavers will skim the details and they will ignore the bits they don't like.

 

[Manter]

Righto ()



No they haven't. Might struggle to get a mortgage or long term let I suppose, although probably not given you can still apply for settled status in any member state you move to before end of 2020.

you are the two that seem crossest! You are both leavers and neither very happy to have got what you wanted. I just don’t get it.

The experiences of my friends suggest they have. A friend in Germany is now essentially living in her boyfriend’s flat because having her on the lease was such hard work. It appears you can no longer get mortgage finance in Spain. Most German states have committed to protect/support anyone who has moved there before yesterday- I don’t know about what happens if you moved during the transition period and I haven’t seen similar statements from other countries but I’m not as close to them so wouldn’t necessarily have seen them.

 

[Proper Tidy]

It's EU rules. Member states don't have sovereignty on it, given they are member states. And I maintain my knobend comment for the disingenuousness. Cheers.

 

[Manter]

It's EU rules. Member states don't have sovereignty on it, given they are member states. And I maintain my knobend comment for the disingenuousness. Cheers.

Disingenuousness?! Oookaaay.
I’d hate to see what angry loser looks like if this is happy winner
Enjoy it....

 

[scifisam]

JimW fair enough then if you were living here at the time - I had the impression you'd been in China for several years. But the difficulties with negotiating a deal show that it wasn't really a basic question.

You can get zero hours contracts. But as a UK citizen your chance to get a job on the fry station at McDonald’s in Bucharest has now gone. So it is understandable that some people on here professed to have spent yesterday crying.

Should you be after a job at CERN and you have the qualifications to land the role, I suspect that the UK leaving the EU will not present you with any barriers to taking up that position.

Who? The closest I saw was one person (who isn't a remainer or a leaver, since she's not British and didn't have a vote), saying that Auld Lang Syne briefly brought tears to her eyes. That's not spending the day crying.

Proper Tidy no, I really don't think there were people in an absolute meltdown. Considering the topic, and the ability of most urbs to get angry at the word hello, it was all pretty calm.

 

[JimW]

Yeah, I'd also been here many years previously, so can see how that would be the impression you'd get.

 

[redsquirrel]

Er, your last line is projecting a bit? I’ve never said you are far right! I’m just not sure why you’re so angry. You’ve won.

you are the two that seem crossest! You are both leavers and neither very happy to have got what you wanted. I just don’t get it.

Like I've said numerous times - an utter inability to see beyond Leave vs Remain. That is all that exists. You claim to understand the "differences are between lexit and ukipy reasons" but you the quotes above show that you don't or at least don't understand why those on here that voted Leave did so.
This comes through in all your posts

Whatever I say is just background noise really - we have left, there is a transition period which isn’t long enough to get any meaningful arrangements in place so we will be completely cut free and on our own this time next year.

(my emphasis)
One of the oddities of the liberal argument is the nationalist basis of its supposed anti-nationalism. The liberal argument for leaving/remaining is not analysed from a class perspective, in fact it cannot be analysed from a class perspective, it can only be conceived by accepting the "national" conflict offered by competing visions of capital.

 

[Proper Tidy]

As I said, knobend

 

[existentialist]

stop. STOP! You people are trying to deny that the right wing in this country are feeling empwered ? Or just pointlessly nitpicking . If you havent experienced the recent surge of right wing empowerment in your lives then i guess you are not working class ?

There is something quite annoying about some n00b barrelling in, and naïvely calling out long-standing members of this established community in the way you are doing.

Stop being annoying.

 

[brogdale]

There is something quite annoying about some n00b barrelling in, and naïvely calling out long-standing members of this established community in the way you are doing.

Stop being annoying.

Might be worth the newbie's while taking a peek back at threads like:

Ukip - why are they gaining support?

&

Characterising UKIP?

to see how some long-standing members of this community have attempted to monitor and analyse the rise of right-wing populism in this country.

 

[butchersapron]

Might be worth the newbie's while taking a peek back at threads like:

Ukip - why are they gaining support?

&

Characterising UKIP?

to see how some long-standing members of this community have attempted to monitor and analyse the rise of right-wing populism in this country.

Interesting to see from 2020, that only 4 years ago our Italian expert insisting that lega nord were strictly regional, nothing else. We are moving fast.