Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.

[existentialist]

No and no thank you.

Regardless, you do agree that we pay the EU and exorbitant amount of money to be part of this so called project, and - a lot more than we get back?

Define "exorbitant".

 

[Pickman's model]

No and no thank you.

Regardless, you do agree that we pay the EU and exorbitant amount of money to be part of this so called project, and - a lot more than we get back?

So what does that make you think of the parties and people who campaigned to join the common market?

 

[Marty1]

Define "exorbitant".

£211 billion since we joined.

 

[existentialist]

£211 billion since we joined.

And what's that - the gross total contribution, or net of money that has come back the other way?

 

[not-bono-ever]

i think that the brand of capitalism we have chosen here is the worse of the two options

 

[not-bono-ever]

anyway, this has popped up on my FB feed from my previous life outside landan




ffs

 

[teqniq]

What.

The EU may be many things but this is just bullshit. Particularly as pretty extreme rightwing politics have gotten us where we are today.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Define "exorbitant".

Also need to define 'we'. Different bits of the UK experience different levels of EU spending. Some net paying others net receiving. Overall the UK is a net payer for two reasons: 1 running an organisation isn't free; and 2 it is richer than the EU average so other places get more money. UK is also far from the top net contributor cos it's not the richest EU country.

Once you dig in to where the money goes and why it goes there, the EU looks much less like an evil empire, but talking about e.g. Hungary's efforts to sort pollution problems or perhaps Hastings getting a nice new park doesn't fit some people's narratives.

 

[existentialist]

Also need to define 'we'. Different bits of the UK experience different levels of EU spending. Some net paying others net receiving. Overall the UK is a net payer for two reasons: 1 running an organisation isn't free; and 2 it is richer than the EU average so other places get more money. UK is also far from the top net contributor cos it's not the richest EU country.

Once you dig in to where the money goes and why it goes there, the EU looks much less like an evil empire, but talking about e.g. Hungary's efforts to sort pollution problems or perhaps Hastings getting a nice new park doesn't fit some people's narratives.

Especially not the kind of people who think that people having less is a reason to take money AWAY from them, not an argument for trying to balance the inequality.

And those of Marty1's ilk have plenty of form for that kind of thinking...

 

[Manter]

No and no thank you.

Regardless, you do agree that we pay the EU and exorbitant amount of money to be part of this so called project, and - a lot more than we get back?

No, I don’t agree because it’s factually incorrect

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Especially not the kind of people who think that people having less is a reason to take money AWAY from them, not an argument for trying to balance the inequality.

And those of Marty1's ilk have plenty of form for that kind of thinking...

Yeah there is a fundamental meanspiritedness to that whole line of argument. Of course the UK is a net contributor. Why would you want it not to be?

 

[Pickman's model]

What I hate about the sector I work in is the way the bean counters have taken over, people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Marty1 is a bean counter. And what's worse is he can't count.

 

[Manter]

Tbf it's also been said of the EU that they have been the bulwark against UK governments imposing austerity and all the awful shit that goes with it, despite the fact it's happened anyway, and not in spite of the EU but because they're out of the same barrel.

They certainly haven’t been a bulwark against austerity! That would be a very odd argument to make of you knew anything about the economies involved.

But the social democracies in the bloc have pretty effectively driven employment protections, and a supra-national legal system to appeal to seems to me to be a good thing (looking across the pond). Plus I am a huge fan of free movement and would like to see it extended- to commonwealth countries for a start, then ideally universal- not withdrawn. And working across borders- for all it is slow and sometimes infuriating- feels much better to me than retreating behind little nationalist walls.
But hey, I lost, get over it etc.

 

[Serge Forward]

Has anyone reminded Marty1 he's a cunt today? If not, it's overdue.

 

[krtek a houby]

Wow. It really was a shit party.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

£211 billion since we joined.

As a percentage of GDP that's what? Under 1 %. Well worth it.

 

[Proper Tidy]

They certainly haven’t been a bulwark against austerity! That would be a very odd argument to make of you knew anything about the economies involved.

But the social democracies in the bloc have pretty effectively driven employment protections, and a supra-national legal system to appeal to seems to me to be a good thing (looking across the pond). Plus I am a huge fan of free movement and would like to see it extended- to commonwealth countries for a start, then ideally universal- not withdrawn. And working across borders- for all it is slow and sometimes infuriating- feels much better to me than retreating behind little nationalist walls.
But hey, I lost, get over it etc.

What employment protections has the EU offered from the top down that were better than the protections the working class in UK had already won through fighting for them? Must be a long list.

Honestly, the idea that the the EU pursues a different economic model more favourable to the working class is absolute shit isn't it, you know this. Why would european capital want to give greater workers rights than british capital, benevolence

 

[existentialist]

Yeah there is a fundamental meanspiritedness to that whole line of argument. Of course the UK is a net contributor. Why would you want it not to be?

Precisely. It seems to me that there's not a million miles from that mindset to burning £50 notes in front of homeless people.

 

[Manter]

What employment protections has the EU offered from the top down that were better than the protections the working class in UK had already won through fighting for them? Must be a long list.

Honestly, the idea that the the EU pursues a different economic model more favourable to the working class is absolute shit isn't it, you know this. Why would european capital want to give greater workers rights than british capital, benevolence

Social democracy. Totally different starting point. For a start it’s not top down- it’s a collective of 27 nations deciding between themselves. We were in all those rooms, taking part in all those discussions.

So, from the top of my head, recent EU agreed/dictated/mandated (depending on your position) rules that protected the worker were;
Transfer of undertakings (enacted as TUPE over here)
Rules on pension scheme funding
Right to privacy at work
Right to be forgotten
Working time directive + Extended clauses to cover exempted professions eg medicine
Various clauses of disability discrimination
Rule that certain benefits had to apply to same sex partners
Rule on when temporary workers were considered ‘employed’ (to avoid rolling fixed term contracts without holiday etc)
We won’t get the benefit of the travel time directive and I suspect gender pay reporting will be rolled back as it was only step 1 in a bigger process.

EU is in no way perfect, and sentimentalism etc is unhelpful. But most of its faults are present to the same or greater extent in its member states. The advantage I believe was in compromise and cooperation, sharing ideas and pooling resources.

but hey. Whether this is a right wing coup or a glorious proletarian revolution, I wait eagerly to find out what our future actually is.

 

[1%er]

I could be wrong but I don't recall a big 'Remain' bus driving around the country with an almighty lie about the supposed incoming immense benefits to the NHS emblazoned all over it?

I'll take your bus but TRUMP it with any of these;
Prime Minister David Cameron implied a third World War could be on the horizon
Chancellor, George Osborne, warned of an immediate emergency budget
Anna Soubry MP claimed a recession would occur simply by a vote to Leave
JP Morgan claimed Scotland will leave the UK and get a new currency
Goldman Sachs claimed there would be a recession by 2017
The Treasury issued statements such as "Half a million job losses"
Health Minister Stephen Dorrell said that the NHS finances would be undermined
Families would be £4,300 worse off if the UK voted to leave
European Council President Donald Tusk said "As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilization in its entirety" [LOLOLOLO]
President Barack Obama said the United Kingdom would be "in the back of the queue" for future free-trade agreements with the United States

The above statements were all just if people voted for Brexit in the referendum, not if it happened, there is another list for that. I appoligise to anyone who is offended by my use of the word TRUMP in this post, I was not talking about the great leader himself but playing cards and card games.

Congratulation again on getting out of what is an anti-democratic system, that's massively pro big business and corporations and also protectionist, I'm surprised so many people on here support such an organization.

 

[existentialist]

I'll take your bus but TRUMP it with any of these;
Prime Minister David Cameron implied a third World War could be on the horizon
Chancellor, George Osborne, warned of an immediate emergency budget
Anna Soubry MP claimed a recession would occur simply by a vote to Leave
JP Morgan claimed Scotland will leave the UK and get a new currency
Goldman Sachs claimed there would be a recession by 2017
The Treasury issued statements such as "Half a million job losses"
Health Minister Stephen Dorrell said that the NHS finances would be undermined
Families would be £4,300 worse off if the UK voted to leave
European Council President Donald Tusk said "As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilization in its entirety" [LOLOLOLO]
President Barack Obama said the United Kingdom would be "in the back of the queue" for future free-trade agreements with the United States

The above statements were all just if people voted for Brexit in the referendum, not if it happened, there is another list for that. I appoligise to anyone who is offended by my use of the word TRUMP in this post, I was not talking about the great leader himself but playing cards and card games.

Congratulation again on getting out of what is an anti-democratic system, that's massively pro big business and corporations and also protectionist, I'm surprised so many people on here support such an organization.

We don't, necessarily. We might just see it as preferable to the same-but-more-parochial alternative being sold to us. And at least, as members of the EU, there was potential to change it; no such luck, now.

 

[The39thStep]

So where does the EU go from here? What direction will it take ?

 

[Artaxerxes]

What.

The EU may be many things but this is just bullshit. Particularly as pretty extreme rightwing politics have gotten us where we are today.

The logic is Germany has an economy.
Nazis were German.
Ergo Europe is Nazi because it has Germans in it.

I didn’t say it was good logic but it’s what some think.

 

[teqniq]

Kind of ironic really, considering the rightwing bullshit that has led to this.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Social democracy. Totally different starting point. For a start it’s not top down- it’s a collective of 27 nations deciding between themselves. We were in all those rooms, taking part in all those discussions.

So, from the top of my head, recent EU agreed/dictated/mandated (depending on your position) rules that protected the worker were;
Transfer of undertakings (enacted as TUPE over here)
Rules on pension scheme funding
Right to privacy at work
Right to be forgotten
Working time directive + Extended clauses to cover exempted professions eg medicine
Various clauses of disability discrimination
Rule that certain benefits had to apply to same sex partners
Rule on when temporary workers were considered ‘employed’ (to avoid rolling fixed term contracts without holiday etc)
We won’t get the benefit of the travel time directive and I suspect gender pay reporting will be rolled back as it was only step 1 in a bigger process.

EU is in no way perfect, and sentimentalism etc is unhelpful. But most of its faults are present to the same or greater extent in its member states. The advantage I believe was in compromise and cooperation, sharing ideas and pooling resources.

but hey. Whether this is a right wing coup or a glorious proletarian revolution, I wait eagerly to find out what our future actually is.

Right of part time workers to holiday and sick pay is another.

 

[teqniq]

Cold War Steve: 'Let's fucking party'.

 

[Proper Tidy]

Social democracy. Totally different starting point. For a start it’s not top down- it’s a collective of 27 nations deciding between themselves. We were in all those rooms, taking part in all those discussions.

So, from the top of my head, recent EU agreed/dictated/mandated (depending on your position) rules that protected the worker were;
Transfer of undertakings (enacted as TUPE over here)
Rules on pension scheme funding
Right to privacy at work
Right to be forgotten
Working time directive + Extended clauses to cover exempted professions eg medicine
Various clauses of disability discrimination
Rule that certain benefits had to apply to same sex partners
Rule on when temporary workers were considered ‘employed’ (to avoid rolling fixed term contracts without holiday etc)
We won’t get the benefit of the travel time directive and I suspect gender pay reporting will be rolled back as it was only step 1 in a bigger process.

EU is in no way perfect, and sentimentalism etc is unhelpful. But most of its faults are present to the same or greater extent in its member states. The advantage I believe was in compromise and cooperation, sharing ideas and pooling resources.

but hey. Whether this is a right wing coup or a glorious proletarian revolution, I wait eagerly to find out what our future actually is.

Social democracy, lol. Not only is it not in any way social democratic, it prohibits member states from implementing measures that could be considered social democratic.

If you don't think a bloc of nation states with an unelected executive is tops down then there is no fucking hope for this convo.

It's just sentimentality and nonsense isn't it. Je suis european

 

[Marty1]

I'll take your bus but TRUMP it with any of these;
Prime Minister David Cameron implied a third World War could be on the horizon
Chancellor, George Osborne, warned of an immediate emergency budget
Anna Soubry MP claimed a recession would occur simply by a vote to Leave
JP Morgan claimed Scotland will leave the UK and get a new currency
Goldman Sachs claimed there would be a recession by 2017
The Treasury issued statements such as "Half a million job losses"
Health Minister Stephen Dorrell said that the NHS finances would be undermined
Families would be £4,300 worse off if the UK voted to leave
European Council President Donald Tusk said "As a historian I fear Brexit could be the beginning of the destruction of not only the EU but also Western political civilization in its entirety" [LOLOLOLO]
President Barack Obama said the United Kingdom would be "in the back of the queue" for future free-trade agreements with the United States

The above statements were all just if people voted for Brexit in the referendum, not if it happened, there is another list for that. I appoligise to anyone who is offended by my use of the word TRUMP in this post, I was not talking about the great leader himself but playing cards and card games.

Congratulation again on getting out of what is an anti-democratic system, that's massively pro big business and corporations and also protectionist, I'm surprised so many people on here support such an organization.

Failed political prophets of doom.

 

[Pickman's model]

Failed political prophets of doom.

They had a good first album but the second was rubbish

 

[Pickman's model]

Social democracy, lol. Not only is it not in any way social democratic, it prohibits member states from implementing measures that could be considered social democratic.

If you don't think a bloc of nation states with an unelected executive is tops down then there is no fucking hope for this convo.

It's just sentimentality and nonsense isn't it. Je suis european

Of course it was top down
And of course it wasn't the saviour the politically illiterate made it out to be
But tbh I think shit as it is it may well prove to have been better in than out