Brexit party on 31 January in London is going ahead. And it will be shit.

[Artaxerxes]

I am going to celebrate by putting in an application for a new passport as it seems I'm going to need it.

Luckily we got red ones the year of the ref so we don't have to stress about the right shade of blue for a while

 

[Pickman's model]

Politicians are supposed to unite and lead a country.

lead yes unite no

 

[Cadmus]

I can give tangible examples like the European arrest warrant, which allows a continental prosecutor to seize British citizens with only the most rudimentary domestic safeguards, but again, many wouldn't have a problem, or would view it as a reasonable trade-off to finally be able to get custody of suspects from countries that otherwise refuse to extradite their own citizens.

An accusation European arrest warrant in continental systems is borne out of an investigation which is usually overseen by a investigative judge, who tests evidence prior to an indictment being preferred. As a result, a continental accusation EAW usually has a stronger evidential basis compared to an English one, where investigations are one-sided and completely prosecutor-led (ignoring defence evidence).

Much like Brexit itself, your comment is, sadly, just an example of a misguided lack of trust in anything non-British, withouth actually having any substantive knowledge about it or direct experience of it.

As a post-script, in 95% of the cases an EAW is a request for an EU national resident in the UK to be extradited to his country of nationality, not a UK national who committed a crime in the EU.

 

[Pickman's model]

Luckily we got red ones the year of the ref so we don't have to stress about the right shade of blue for a while

It'll be tory blue

 

[The39thStep]

cracking speech

 

[Azrael]

An accusation European arrest warrant in continental systems is borne out of an investigation which is usually overseen by a investigative judge, who tests evidence prior to an indictment being preferred. As a result, a continental accusation EAW usually has a stronger evidential basis compared to an English one, where investigations are one-sided and completely prosecutor-led (ignoring defence evidence).

Much like Brexit itself, your comment is, sadly, just an example of a misguided lack of trust in anything non-British, withouth actually having any substantive knowledge about it or direct experience of it.

As a post-script, in 95% of the cases an EAW is a request for an EU national resident in the UK to be extradited to his country of nationality, not a UK national who committed a crime in the EU.

Depends on the jurisdiction: even France herself only employs juges d'instruction in a tiny number of serious cases; and many European countries have either abolished them, or never had 'em. Moreover, in 2012 the Supreme Court ruled that prosecutors can issue a warrant themselves without going before a judge, and for the purpose of subjecting someone to a custodial interrogation prior to any charges being filed (albeit with "probable cause", although that was required by Sweden, not Britain).

It's not about reflexively distrusting Continental systems -- as it happens, there's several I'd trust more than the current English system -- but believing that this is the proper role of our government and courts, not a job to contract out to another. But of course, they hate the idea, which is why, when given the chance to repatriate E.U. justice measures, they couldn't wait to offload them again.

Another reason that, however I feel about the E.U., I believe we need to get our own house in order before criticising theirs.

 

[rekil]

cracking speech

Daly is a disgusting character I'm afraid. Heroic work on the (failed) bin charges campaign of 2003 is one thing, trailing after crooked property man Mick Wallace and the pair of them ganging up with holocaust deniers, conspiraloons, Assad, Iran, and of course, Galloway, is quite another.

 

[existentialist]

But if the result had been remain no doubt you’d have been up in arms about the tawdry simplistic vote on a complex subject ?

I would have breathed a sigh of relief that a mouthbreathing political stunt had not resulted in an accidental - and slight - mandate to commit an act I saw as the peak of lunacy.

 

[Artaxerxes]

cracking speech

Not sure what lessons we're supposed to learn really, I could have done without 4 years of economic uncertainty that's seen me lose a couple of jobs and throw a wrench in my plans pushing back my career and any feasibility to own a house back to my 40s.


All for some vague notions of sovereignty under a government that's spent half a century fucking over it's own people and now has any brakes removed.

The EU may not be trustworthy but time after time the UK government has gone the extra mile in going full capitalist and then blaming the EU for it*. Well guess what, France and Germany have ignored EU tyranny and maintained more socialism and community than we have.

Fuck Westminster, fuck Brexit. I get the little people are hurting, I get the working class are fucked, I get the anger and hurt the world is changing. But we have just backed the likes of Farage and Boris and put them in charge. It's like fleeing a serial killer to lock yourself in a room with the serial killer then handing him a knife.

*Railways, postal workers, deregulation of banks, water and power everything has been sold off to the maximum extent it can get away with.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

cracking speech

Sad thing is that the brexit vote in the UK wasn't for any of the things she talks about. It wasn't because the EU allows its rules to be broken to allow for arms deals but not housing deals. If only the UK were leaving the EU for the reasons she gives - sounds a bit like a 'lexit'! But it's not, and it never was. And that matters.

tbh that whole speech makes the same fundamental mistake that some make on here. Brexit is a manifestation of the nasty r/w nationalism that has been growing across Europe and elsewhere, in the US, in Brazil, not a reaction to it. It is perhaps a reaction to some of the neoliberal shortcomings of the EU in part (but only in part, it's nowhere near that sophisticated mostly), but it is a r/w reaction to it, of the kind that leads people to vote Front National in France or Freedom Party in the Netherlands. In the UK's political system, that's what this looks like. UKIP don't get elected directly. They hijack the Tory party and get in that way.

 

[Pickman's model]

I would have breathed a sigh of relief that a mouthbreathing political stunt had not resulted in an accidental - and slight - mandate to commit an act I saw as the peak of lunacy.

Oh you've not seen the peak of lunacy yet

 

[gosub]

All your shitty shopping needs catered for

Exclusive Brexit Merch for you, Friend

 

[krtek a houby]

Looking fwd to seeing everyone's celebration pics, all the same.

 

[andysays]

I could be wrong but I don't recall a big 'Remain' bus driving around the country with an almighty lie about the supposed incoming immense benefits to the NHS emblazoned all over it?

The bus, the fucking bus!!!

That's the last space on my Remainer bingo card filled in

 

[not-bono-ever]

A new life awaits you in the Off-world colonies. The chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure.

 

[flypanam]

Again? At what point did brexit fuck the tories the first time? It came close to fucking them, I'll grant you that, but they came through the other side with a big parliamentary majority that is extremely beholden to the leader, whose position is currently unassailable, and who has five years in power to look forward to. The only way brexit fucks the tories from this point is if brexit fucks Britain. And fuck knows what that will bring with it. It's unlikely to be good.

If anything, you could argue that brexit has finally solved Europe for the tories, for the time being at least.

At some point Really Existing Toryism is going to clash with the expectations of those that voted for them. The first lines of that conflict were written during the week, when Johnson and Javid (Ravid from now on, cos he's a Randist) told government departments to make cuts of 5%.

Either Johnson delivers pay rises, more money for the NHS, 2 billion for potholes or he'll face a still steaming populace who have been angry in various ways since the 2008. When the rich keep getting richer under really existing toryism, the populace won't have the eu to blame. The Government may try to blame someone but they are slowly running out of scapegoats.

 

[The39thStep]

Sad thing is that the brexit vote in the UK wasn't for any of the things she talks about. It wasn't because the EU allows its rules to be broken to allow for arms deals but not housing deals. If only the UK were leaving the EU for the reasons she gives - sounds a bit like a 'lexit'! But it's not, and it never was. And that matters.

tbh that whole speech makes the same fundamental mistake that some make on here. Brexit is a manifestation of the nasty r/w nationalism that has been growing across Europe and elsewhere, in the US, in Brazil, not a reaction to it. It is perhaps a reaction to some of the neoliberal shortcomings of the EU in part (but only in part, it's nowhere near that sophisticated mostly), but it is a r/w reaction to it, of the kind that leads people to vote Front National in France or Freedom Party in the Netherlands. In the UK's political system, that's what this looks like. UKIP don't get elected directly. They hijack the Tory party and get in that way.

Aside from this being a more wordy version of anyone who votes Brexit is a racist your response to what is perhaps 'a reaction some of the neo liberal shortcomings of the EU' is to adocate remaining a member of it in France and Holland and in the UK to rejoin it?

 

[The39thStep]

Not sure what lessons we're supposed to learn really, I could have done without 4 years of economic uncertainty that's seen me lose a couple of jobs and throw a wrench in my plans pushing back my career and any feasibility to own a house back to my 40s.


All for some vague notions of sovereignty under a government that's spent half a century fucking over it's own people and now has any brakes removed.

The EU may not be trustworthy but time after time the UK government has gone the extra mile in going full capitalist and then blaming the EU for it*. Well guess what, France and Germany have ignored EU tyranny and maintained more socialism and community than we have.

Fuck Westminster, fuck Brexit. I get the little people are hurting, I get the working class are fucked, I get the anger and hurt the world is changing. But we have just backed the likes of Farage and Boris and put them in charge. It's like fleeing a serial killer to lock yourself in a room with the serial killer then handing him a knife.

*Railways, postal workers, deregulation of banks, water and power everything has been sold off to the maximum extent it can get away with.

Its almost like economic uncertainty , capitalism, Tory government , racism ,nationalist sentiment didnt exist before the vote to leave . Also might be worth re-visting France and Germany's current progress on 'socialism and community'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Its almost like economic uncertainty , capitalism, Tory government , racism ,nationalist sentiment didnt exist before the vote to leave . Also might be worth re-visting France and Germany's current progress on 'socialism and community'.

you might have pointed out that france and germany having maintained more socialism and community than we have isn't really setting the bar that high

 

[Pickman's model]

At some point Really Existing Toryism is going to clash with the expectations of those that voted for them. The first lines of that conflict were written during the week, when Johnson and Javid (Ravid from now on, cos he's a Randist) told government departments to make cuts of 5%.

Either Johnson delivers pay rises, more money for the NHS, 2 billion for potholes or he'll face a still steaming populace who have been angry in various ways since the 2008. When the rich keep getting richer under really existing toryism, the populace won't have the eu to blame. The Government may try to blame someone but they are slowly running out of scapegoats.

i think boris johnson will make an admirable scapegoat

 

[Pickman's model]

tbh the more important events of the day will be happening in football clubs around the country as the final hours of the january transfer window tick away

 

[The39thStep]

tbh the more important events of the day will be happening in football clubs around the country as the final hours of the january transfer window tick away

Its almost like Chelsea still think they have a transfer ban

 

[scifisam]

At some point Really Existing Toryism is going to clash with the expectations of those that voted for them. The first lines of that conflict were written during the week, when Johnson and Javid (Ravid from now on, cos he's a Randist) told government departments to make cuts of 5%.

Either Johnson delivers pay rises, more money for the NHS, 2 billion for potholes or he'll face a still steaming populace who have been angry in various ways since the 2008. When the rich keep getting richer under really existing toryism, the populace won't have the eu to blame. The Government may try to blame someone but they are slowly running out of scapegoats.

They'll blame immigrants, poor people, remainers, young people, and probably Jeremy Corbyn. There are plenty of scapegoats. The Tories won't be blamed at all.

I wish I had your optimism, but after the way the Tories have fucked the country over with austerity, universal credit, and effective cuts to the NHS, you'd think people would be pissed off with them. But no, they got loads more seats, particularly in areas they'd treated the worst. So it's not like there's exactly a track record of the Tories fucking up and people holding them to account - it's the exact opposite.

 

[tommers]

That's the first non ironic like I have given today.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Aside from this being a more wordy version of anyone who votes Brexit is a racist your response to what is perhaps 'a reaction some of the neo liberal shortcomings of the EU' is to adocate remaining a member of it in France and Holland and in the UK to rejoin it?

Johnson is a racist, openly so. As is Farage. More than 13 million people voted for parties led by one or the other last month. Are all those 13 million racist? That's the wrong question, always has been. The question is 'did they knowingly vote for racists?', and the answer to that question has to be, overwhelmingly, 'yes'. If that doesn't depress you, there's something wrong with you.

 

[flypanam]

They'll blame immigrants, poor people, remainers, young people, and probably Jeremy Corbyn. There are plenty of scapegoats. The Tories won't be blamed at all.

I wish I had your optimism, but after the way the Tories have fucked the country over with austerity, universal credit, and effective cuts to the NHS, you'd think people would be pissed off with them. But no, they got loads more seats, particularly in areas they'd treated the worst. So it's not like there's exactly a track record of the Tories fucking up and people holding them to account - it's the exact opposite.

I do understand that but what is different (at least to me) is that in the election the tories were promising 'oven ready' solutions to problems, promising to throw cash at this and that. They were promising a return to British dominance in finance and British success. And people voted to get Brexit out of way and for the government to start governing.

There is an expectation of better that will meet with the crushing reality of worse.

Yes they may find scapegoats but everyone knows single mothers are worse off. Everyone knows that being on benefits is no easy life. Everyone knows work doesn't pay if your British or foreign. Everyone know pensions are shit and the NHS is in crisis.

But everyone knows the rich are coining it in.

eta here isa very good article in the FT The Brexit years that suggests that issues around immigration are on the wane, while there is low level confidence in the economy.

 

[Poot]

I do understand that but what is different (at least to me) is that in the election the tories were promising 'oven ready' solutions to problems, promising to throw cash at this and that. They were promising a return to British dominance in finance and British success. And people voted to get Brexit out of way and for the government to start governing.

There is an expectation of better that will meet with the crushing reality of worse.

Yes they may find scapegoats but everyone knows single mothers are worse off. Everyone knows that being on benefits is no easy life. Everyone knows work doesn't pay if your British or foreign. Everyone know pensions are shit and the NHS is in crisis.

But everyone knows the rich are coining it in.

There's a lot of distraction at play at the moment. All of the trumpeting in of Brexit means that the Tories are probably getting away with even more murder than usual. When the smoke clears and people get angry, it won't be with the Tories, scifisam is right, it will be with people that they NOW identify as the enemy. They won't be quick to switch allegiance and feel bad that they voted Tory I don't think. Easier to get angry with the 'other'. People don't like being wrong.

 

[1%er]

I hope you all have a wonderful time tonight, Remainers need to get over themselves and give thanks that they are no longer in a political union where they had no real say on how they are governed. The EU project was doomed after they ignored the results of referendums in France, Holland and Ireland, it just took many years for this to happen.

I'd expect Denmark to be the next to leave, but if there is another economic problem in the next couple of years it could be Italy that leaves next, southern Europe has suffered greatly economically from EU membership, unemployment will be the spark that lights they fire there, millions of young people see no future leaving with massive unemployment in the region and hopefully they will stand up and start fighting back. While eastern European countries have received lots of inward investment over recent years from the EU, the people there are now showing signs of becoming pissed off being dictated too by the EU and now the investment will slow or stop I can see a number of countries in the area looking to leave the EU.

Europe as a free trade area was a great idea, the same types of free trade agreements were happening around the globe, so the EU needed to become a free trade area but nowhere else was political union added to these agreements and for good reason.

Unlike many whose posts I have read on this thread, I believe the UK will do well sailing its own ship. I also think the EU without the UK will struggle on for a few more years but in the end the Euro will bring it to its knees and the whole thing will come crashing down.

I hate the fact that the Brazilian people voted for Jair Bolsonaro, but they did and I have to except that fact, I could cry and moan about how this will mean the end of the world and that everyone who voted for him is racist, sexist or homophobic, or I can just work and carry on in an effort to make things better. I suspect that having Jair Bolsonaro elected in Brazil will have about the same effect on me as Brexit will have on most of you. Have some perspective.

 

[Pickman's model]

I hope you all have a wonderful time tonight, Remainers need to get over themselves and give thanks that they are no longer in a political union where they had no real say on how they are governed

i bet that makes the scots feel so much better.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I suspect that having Jair Bolsonaro elected in Brazil will have about the same effect on me as Brexit will have on most of you. Have some perspective.

Exactly. Bolsonaro is fucking shit, and you might escape the worst of his policies, but others won't. That's the perspective.