Boris's ban on alcohol on London Transport (with poll)

[Johnny Canuck3]

There was a pretty good selection of alcoholic drinks for sale last time I took VIA rail...

You can also drink on Air Canada. I think you can discern the difference.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Or they took it somewhere else...?

Do you have the 'binge drinking' culture over there Johnny?

Yes, they can get shitfaced at home, at friends', and at any of numerous drinking establishments.

They can't get shitfaced in public places or events.

The liberty of drinking and drinkers is tempered and counterbalanced by the liberty of those not drinking at the moment, not to have drunk and disorderly people in their midst.

We have drinking, even heavy drinking. But if by 'binge drinking culture' you mean those pictures I see of your town centers filled with puking and fighting louts, the men shirtless and the women flailing on the ground, their miniskirts awry, then in general, no.

 

[citydreams]

So, I'm guessing drinking at a picnic in a park is banned too?

 

[Yossarian]

We have drinking, even heavy drinking. But if by 'binge drinking culture' you mean those pictures I see of your town centers filled with puking and fighting louts, the men shirtless and the women flailing on the ground, their miniskirts awry, then in general, no.

Ever spent a Friday night in Hull, Quebec?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Ever spent a Friday night in Hull, Quebec?

No. Ever spent Saturday night on Granville Street? Same thing, I think. But those spectacles aren't the typical Canadian experience, and there are specific reasons in each case for their existence.

 

[citydreams]

Hmm...

Cannabis cultivation, otherwise known as marijuana grow operations, has more than doubled over the past decade, from 3,400 incidents in 1994 to more than 8,000 incidents last year. The rate of cocaine-related incidents increased by 17% in 2004, numbering nearly 17,000.

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I don't care about the (rather pointless) ban on drinking on the Tube, but the plan to have "440 extra police officers to patrol trains and station platforms" sounds OK. They will be welcomed by many people - especially by the people (many of them women) who feel that the Tube is not safe at night.

By the sounds of all the assaults, robberies etc that you have, 440 additional cops sounds like a middling-to-weak start at a fix.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Hmm...

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm

Yep, lots of drugs here.

I know you have a point.

 

[citydreams]

By the sounds of all the assaults, robberies etc that you have, 440 additional cops sounds like a middling-to-weak start at a fix.

They're not on the tubes. We had incidents of "steaming" a good few years ago. But that's changed since the days of CCTV.

TfL carries out surveys on personal safety and they all show year on year improvements.

The main concern is for the journey between the station and home. Not on the tube itself.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

They're not on the tubes. We had incidents of "steaming" a good few years ago. But that's changed since the days of CCTV.

TfL carries out surveys on personal safety and they all show year on year improvements.

The main concern is for the journey between the station and home. Not on the tube itself.

How about happy slapping.

And personally, I'd rather live in a society with restrictions on public drinking, than in one where I'm basically watched 24 hours a day over cc cameras by faceless security personnel.

 

[Yossarian]

Here, as was pointed out by JC, we don't drink in public places. That includes parks, buses - anywhere that has public assess. For us, this is civilizated. I found it very strange that you embrace this as a personal freedom. It makes the the UK seems a little backward, imo.

I don't see what's so civilized about having a government that has to bring in laws to stop people drinking in public because it doesn't trust the populace to behave.

Windsor's bringing in a 'no puking in public' law:
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourn...=bcc4a327-0583-416a-84e3-bb6b15df8915&k=13395

That's not because Windsor's a step further down the road to civilization than cities without similar laws, it's because on weekend nights Oullette Avenue is full of teenage drinkers from over the border who can't handle their beer spraying pavement pizzas everywhere. (a little bit like Hull, Quebec...)

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I don't see what's so civilized about having a government that has to bring in laws to stop people drinking in public because it doesn't trust the populace to behave..

Those laws have always been on the books here. Seems it's your govt bringing in laws to stop people drinking in public because it doesn't trust people to behave..


As to the second part of your post, like I said, there are specific reasons. In Windsor's case, it's a huge load of boorish Amercian youth coming across to drink cheap Moosehead or whatever, and to act like asses in ways that would get them tossed in the clink back home.

In Vancouver, it's because the idiot council decided to concentrate a large number of bars and nightclubs in a four block strip, then extend drinking hours to 4 am, while the surrounding municipalities didn't.

That meant a flood of Surreyites and other suburbans, like a canadian version of the loutish american, flooding downtown to drink all night, and fight and puke and fuck in alleys. So our policing costs have gone up, while Surrey is laughing. Bastards!

In Hull, it's probably some mix of american louts and French Canadians that is the problem.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Would something like this have been possible without London drinking?

 

[citydreams]

I think that might have been Moonshine

 

[Yossarian]

In Hull, it's probably some mix of american louts and French Canadians that is the problem.

It's the Anglos from over the border in Ontario - drinking age is a year lower in Quebec and the bars stay open a couple of hours later than the ones in Ottawa. Pretty good poutine stands too, from what I can remember...

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's the Anglos from over the border in Ontario - drinking age is a year lower in Quebec and the bars stay open a couple of hours later than the ones in Ottawa. Pretty good poutine stands too, from what I can remember...

Exactly, it's always something like that.

But the streets of Toronto are pretty orderly on a Saturday night.







Boring fuckers....

 

[Yossarian]

Downtown can get pretty rowdy on a Saturday, but places are pretty spread out so you don't get quite the same concentration of drunks you might see in other cities.

Looks like the real action's in the Skydome:

http://www.blogto.com/sports_play/2008/04/blue_jays_ban_beer/

 

[bluestreak]

By the sounds of all the assaults, robberies etc that you have, 440 additional cops sounds like a middling-to-weak start at a fix.

it's really not that bad. you make it sound like south central around here!

 

[bluestreak]

I think a lot of you are missign connections here.

This is a typical politician's solution. Firstly, we take two problems that exist amongst the electorate.

1. fears of anti-social behaviour.
2. decreased taking in pubs.

by banning drinking on the tube, we neatly appear to be dealing with the first, whilse hopefully dealing with the second.

in the end, the sort of people who drink on tubes now and again are people like urbanites. let's say i'm going to a gig. i want a couple of beers first. having one can of £1 beer saves me buying a can of £3.50 beer in the venue. now it's illegal. i'm not allowed to save money. in fact, if i have the cheek to try, i could get nicked and fined.

meanwhile, of course, people who cause ASB won't take the blindest bits of notice. result, no change in crime, increased takings in the venues, and anyone unlucky enough to be nicked for having a can on the way to a gig gets added to the stats for resolution and punishment of what is now ASB but before was quiet peaceful behaviour.

incidentally, the reason there were threatened tube strikes recently is because london underground are removing staff from smaller stations to save money, leaving unmanned stations and of course the fear of ASB. how can london afford more transport police but less station workers. station workers are cheaper?

another bit of traing the british public to do as they're told.

also, i thought this was very intelligent, but no-one seems to agree or disgree

 

[ymu]

also, i thought this was very intelligent, but no-one seems to agree or disgree

I agree, but I didn't have anything else to add so I didn't say so.

Johnny seems to disagree though.

You can also drink on Air Canada. I think you can discern the difference.

I think he's saying public drinking is OK when there's a profit to be made but scumbags doing it on the cheap must be stopped for the sake of capit...errr...society.

 

[Yossarian]

in the end, the sort of people who drink on tubes now and again are people like urbanites. let's say i'm going to a gig. i want a couple of beers first. having one can of £1 beer saves me buying a can of £3.50 beer in the venue. now it's illegal. i'm not allowed to save money. in fact, if i have the cheek to try, i could get nicked and fined.

Yep, this sounds right. There's no toilets on the trains anyway so it's not as if anybody is likely to bring a dozen cans onto the Circle Line or something and settle in for a day's heavy drinking. Maybe they should just bring back the platform pubs...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I actually support this. Greasy food and phones playing music next please.

^^^^^^wot he said


In Hong Kong you can't eat or drink on the tube and it's lovely. Clean & tidy, tidy & clean.

 

[DJ Squelch]

Yep, this sounds right. There's no toilets on the trains anyway so it's not as if anybody is likely to bring a dozen cans onto the Circle Line or something and settle in for a day's heavy drinking. Maybe they should just bring back the platform pubs...

Another reason for banning it. People drinking on ther tube will need a piss sooner & if they're stuck in the carriage they have to go there or on the station platform if their tubes about to arrive and the nearest toilet is in the ticket hall. Also each year a few drunk people fall on the tracks / in front of trains, I know they were probably drunk before getting on the tube but allowing drinking on the tube only increases the chances of it occuring.

I know it wont make much difference to drunken behavoiur on trains but certainly puts forward the right message. If you want to have a drink before a gig then just get there a bit earlier.

 

[editor]

We have drinking, even heavy drinking. But if by 'binge drinking culture' you mean those pictures I see of your town centers filled with puking and fighting louts, the men shirtless and the women flailing on the ground, their miniskirts awry, then in general, no.

All of which has precious little to do with drinking on the tube.

By the sounds of all the assaults, robberies etc that you have, 440 additional cops sounds like a middling-to-weak start at a fix.

Assaults and robberies on the tube are down year on year. It's even safer than Perth's transit system!

How about happy slapping.

What about it? It's a minor trend that's all but vanished and very little of it took place on the tube.

Also each year a few drunk people fall on the tracks / in front of trains, I know they were probably drunk before getting on the tube but allowing drinking on the tube only increases the chances of it occuring.

Sounds like you want people to take a breathalyser test before they're allowed to get on the tube.

 

[story]

Say what you will, but in fact, we had public drinking here, then it was stopped, and the level of public disorder went down.

I know you want to ignore that, and call it 'zero evidence', because it goes against the grain of your dislike for Boris, but there it is. It is the truth.

I wonder if the figures for domestic abuse, drunk driving, assault, and alcohol related hospital admissions went down in the same period or up?

I mean, are you saying that drinking went down because public drinking went down? Or did it just become less obvious?

By the sounds of all the assaults, robberies etc that you have, 440 additional cops sounds like a middling-to-weak start at a fix.

The Tube really isn't *that* unsafe.

Those laws have always been on the books here. Seems it's your govt bringing in laws to stop people drinking in public because it doesn't trust people to behave..


As to the second part of your post, like I said, there are specific reasons. In Windsor's case, it's a huge load of boorish Amercian youth coming across to drink cheap Moosehead or whatever, and to act like asses in ways that would get them tossed in the clink back home.

In Vancouver, it's because the idiot council decided to concentrate a large number of bars and nightclubs in a four block strip, then extend drinking hours to 4 am, while the surrounding municipalities didn't.

That meant a flood of Surreyites and other suburbans, like a canadian version of the loutish american, flooding downtown to drink all night, and fight and puke and fuck in alleys. So our policing costs have gone up, while Surrey is laughing. Bastards!

In Hull, it's probably some mix of american louts and French Canadians that is the problem.

These are all specific details of particular instances. We have them too.

In the same way that we can only see Canada in a broad sense, so you can only see the UK from a general point of view.

Specifics are important.

 

[spring-peeper]

I don't see what's so civilized about having a government that has to bring in laws to stop people drinking in public because it doesn't trust the populace to behave.

Windsor's bringing in a 'no puking in public' law:
http://www.canada.com/edmontonjourn...=bcc4a327-0583-416a-84e3-bb6b15df8915&k=13395

That's not because Windsor's a step further down the road to civilization than cities without similar laws, it's because on weekend nights Oullette Avenue is full of teenage drinkers from over the border who can't handle their beer spraying pavement pizzas everywhere. (a little bit like Hull, Quebec...)

I'm 45 minutes from Hull - it's on the Quebec/Ontario border (Hull is just over the bridge from Ottawa). Most border towns are the same - here the kids go to Grenville (again, just across a bridge).

Quebec and Ontario have different drinking laws. The bars stay open longer than in Ontario and the legal drinking age is less. This is one of the main reasons that this area is so bad.

I don't think that the drinking laws are in place because we do not think that our drunks are out of control. It's more along the lines of a family values kind of thing. No drinking in public.

 

[spring-peeper]

In Hull, it's probably some mix of american louts and French Canadians that is the problem.

No, that is not the problem. Very few americans.

And why single out the French Canadians? The English Canadians are just as bad. Please keep your prejudices out of it.

 

[Roadkill]

This is a nonsense proposal. As several others have suggested, the overwhelming majority of people who do have a drink on the tube do so quietly and without causing a problem, and the small number who do make trouble are invariably pissed before they get on. Banning drinking on the tube will achieve nothing beyond penalising a whole lot of people for the mistakes of a tiny minority.

 

[citydreams]

I don't think that the drinking laws are in place because we do not think that our drunks are out of control. It's more along the lines of a family values kind of thing. No drinking in public.

Where are the family values in not drinking in public? It's ok to do bad things at home, but not where other people can see you?

 

[gabi]

Drinking on trains/tubes is one of the small things that make me love London. Friends who come over from the US or NZ etc can't believe we get away with that.

Next he'll be trying to ban people drinking on the street outside pubs. Cunt.