BBC - Owen Jones

[nino_savatte]

Which is exactly what the group he is around from Unite and this new CLASS think tank are trying to do...

Have you seen who's on their National Advisory Panel? Sunny fucking Hundal ffs!

 

[Joe Reilly]

It's perfectly clear, in the absence of any credible alternative, to attempt to influence the Labour party but not by organising a clear a distinct pole of attraction within it which is clearly distinct from the bulk of the party where class politics have been evacuated.

Jesus, that's as convoluted as Jeremy Corbyn draping himself in the the red flag while travelling from his own constituency to canvass against the iwca in a council by-election in 2003.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Jesus, that's as convoluted as Jeremy Corbyn draping himself in the the red flag while travelling from his own constituency to canvass against the iwca in a council by-election in 2003.

I'm always amazed at the lengths Labour go to to dislodge any left-wing competition as soon as it pops up, especially the Labour Left. They never showed that kind of urgency when the BNP were on the rise in some of their safest areas (Stoke, Dagenham and Barnsley spring to mind). They probably spent more effort in getting rid of Dave Nellist in coventry than any other individual council seat this may, and apparently when it looked like George Galloway might actually win the by-election in Bradford just a few days before the polls they wheeled Dennis Skinner out to campaign for them, and even had poor old Tony Benn working the phones for them and everything.

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm always amazed at the lengths Labour go to to dislodge any left-wing competition as soon as it pops up, especially the Labour Left. They never showed that kind of urgency when the BNP were on the rise in some of their safest areas (Stoke, Dagenham and Barnsley spring to mind). They probably spent more effort in getting rid of Dave Nellist in coventry than any other individual council seat this may, and apparently when it looked like George Galloway might actually win the by-election in Bradford just a few days before the polls they wheeled Dennis Skinner out to campaign for them, and even had poor old Tony Benn working the phones for them and everything.

Funny you should say that. Here's what Representing the Mambo said about Coventry LP's efforts to remove Dave Nellist.

Indeed, if I was a Labour councillor in Coventry, I certainly wouldn’t be very upset at the prospect of people like Nellist sitting in the same council chamber. In fact, I would probably welcome it as politically I probably have far more in common with them than many in the Labour Party. So the decision by the local Labour Party to ‘go after’ Nellist is a little bit depressing. It is frankly bewildering that anyone in the Coventry LP thought a better use of resources would be targeting an anti-cuts socialist councillor with such an exemplary, principled record (however much I might disagree with him on some issues) rather than the local Tories.
And to top it off when Nellist was making his final speech in the council chamber the Labour councillors childishly staged a walk-out. Juvenile, brainless and indicative of the state of much of what passes for ‘Labour thinking’ in 2012. Attacking and belittling socialists is seen as a bigger priority than opposing the Conservatives and their socially destructive agenda. And I’m not exaggerating when I say that either.
http://representingthemambo.wordpre...llist-really-have-been-a-priority-for-labour/

 

[Joe Reilly]

I'm always amazed at the lengths Labour go to to dislodge any left-wing competition as soon as it pops up, especially the Labour Left. They never showed that kind of urgency when the BNP were on the rise in some of their safest areas (Stoke, Dagenham and Barnsley spring to mind). They probably spent more effort in getting rid of Dave Nellist in coventry than any other individual council seat this may, and apparently when it looked like George Galloway might actually win the by-election in Bradford just a few days before the polls they wheeled Dennis Skinner out to campaign for them, and even had poor old Tony Benn working the phones for them and everything.

Yes, indeed, nothing as subversive to Labour Left as 'the threat of a good example'. I don't know whether it has happened in other areas or to other groups, but the strategy eventually employed against the BNP -whereby all the other parties put up candidates and campaign like their life depended on it - in order to boost overall turn out and thus deny the BNP, without the need to engage with the BNP constituency on the issues pertinent to them, was also employed against the IWCA, particulalry in Oxford.

On one notable occassion, even the Tories stood in Blackbird Leys and not only did they canvass as in a real campaign, but were out energetically knocking up their supporters until the 10pm cut-off point, as if for all the world, the result hung in the balance.

They got 60 votes.

P

 

[youngian]

The ever greater rise of Owen Jones is a mystery.

Stand by for his full recantation of these "youthful immature views" in a few years , as he rebrands himself and moves decisively to the neo Liberal Right, and gets a "voice of the ordinary man" column on the Daily Mail !

Sounds like Tony Parsons.

 

[articul8]

Jesus, that's as convoluted as Jeremy Corbyn draping himself in the the red flag while travelling from his own constituency to canvass against the iwca in a council by-election in 2003.

there was a stray "not" in there it should have said "by organising a clear a distinct pole of attraction within, demonstrably different from the bulk of the party where class politics have been evacuated".

 

[Joe Reilly]

there was a stray "not" in there it should have said "by organising a clear a distinct pole of attraction within, demonstrably different from the bulk of the party where class politics have been evacuated".

Yeah, there's 'not's' and then there's 'knots' which are generally harder to untangle.

 

[articul8]

yep - but the knots are objective

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Not just me either, that very public sociologist fella too. Bet there's a few more too...

Yes, he left the Socialist Party claiming that his basic politics were still the same, but that he had come to the conclusion that it was necessary to work inside Labour, to built a pole of attraction etc. Within a year and a half he was a loyal assistant to a Blairite MP.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

there was a stray "not" in there it should have said "by organising a clear a distinct pole of attraction within, demonstrably different from the bulk of the party where class politics have been evacuated".

So how's that coming along then, now that the last bastions of the Labour left, the LRC and Campaign Group, can mobilise less people to their open conferences than even runts of the left litter like the AWL?

 

[articul8]

really - which one? It's not axiomatic that working for an MP makes you a cunt, though plenty would fall into that category.

 

[articul8]

So how's that coming along then, now that the last bastions of the Labour left, the LRC and Campaign Group, can mobilise less people to their open conferences than even runts of the left litter like the AWL?

Depends how you measure it. On the plus side Christine Shawcroft beat Luke Akehurst by 10,000+ votes. I don't share the view of some (CLPD etc) that this shows the Labour left is on the march. I think it's more an index of a fairly meaningless vote in the NEC being practically the only opportunity to stick two fingers upto the leadership.

LRC aside, the rest of the Labour left seems moribund and decaying - I was at the AGM of Labour Briefing (at which there was a vote to make it into the journal of the LRC btw) where there were probably only three or four people younger than me in the room. And I'm no spring chicken. At least the LRC realises it has to face outwards and that the current state of the labour party isn't the be-all-and-end-all of class struggle.
I don't know whether it can build itself into any kind of influential force. But then I don't see many other left forces are in that position either.

 

[articul8]

currently working with Stoke-on-Trent MP Tristram Hunt on a project to bring the local business and ‘third sector’ communities together.

http://democraticfutures.org.uk/our-people-5341.html

Oh. That sounds shite.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

http://democraticfutures.org.uk/our-people-5341.html

Oh. That sounds shite.

Yes. His move to Labour was initially surrounded with leftish babble about strategy, but the trajectory and career path were clear very early on. He's not even a Labour "left", just someone who turned his coat.

 

[articul8]

That's a shame. I hope he sees the error of his ways.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Depends how you measure it. On the plus side Christine Shawcroft beat Luke Akehurst by 10,000+ votes. I don't share the view of some (CLPD etc) that this shows the Labour left is on the march. I think it's more an index of a fairly meaningless vote in the NEC being practically the only opportunity to stick two fingers upto the leadership.

Ok, so we agree that this is meaningless.

LRC aside, the rest of the Labour left seems moribund and decaying - I was at the AGM of Labour Briefing (at which there was a vote to make it into the journal of the LRC btw) where there were probably only three or four people younger than me in the room. And I'm no spring chicken. At least the LRC realises it has to face outwards and that the current state of the labour party isn't the be-all-and-end-all of class struggle.
I don't know whether it can build itself into any kind of influential force. But then I don't see many other left forces are in that position either.

So, we agree that the Labour left outside the LRC is "moribund and decaying", not to mention tiny and elderly. I'll even go so far as to agree that the LRC does indeed "face outwards" more than the rest of what's left of the Labour left. But we should be clear that the LRC itself is tiny and for all that it is more vigorous than the rest of the crumpled remnants of the Lab left it can mobilise less people and actually does left than even groups on the scale of the AWL. It's been around for a few years now and it isn't having an impact in any field. The milieu its surrounded by - the Labour Party - is extremely unpromising in terms of attracting politically radical young people. Its attempt to set up a youth wing ended up involving fewer people than the youth wing of Workers Power. What purpose does it serve? What purpose does being in it serve?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

That's a shame. I hope he sees the error of his ways.

It was predictable, at least in broad outline. The only surprising part was how quickly the process happened. 99 times out of a hundred these days if some political radical decides to join Labour it means that they are either going into retirement from activism or that they are drastically shifting their politics to the right.

 

[love detective]

only 99 times out of hundred?

 

[Nigel Irritable]

only 99 times out of hundred?

There's the odd fool in amongst the knaves.

 

[imposs1904]

Yes. His move to Labour was initially surrounded with leftish babble about strategy, but the trajectory and career path were clear very early on. He's not even a Labour "left", just someone who turned his coat.

Bit cheeky doing a PhD on your mates and then jumping ship . . . but he's always seemed like a good bloke on his blog and elsewhere.

 

[articul8]

for all that it is more vigorous than the rest of the crumpled remnants of the Lab left it can mobilise less people and actually does left than even groups on the scale of the AWL. It's been around for a few years now and it isn't having an impact in any field. The milieu its surrounded by - the Labour Party - is extremely unpromising in terms of attracting politically radical young people. Its attempt to set up a youth wing ended up involving fewer people than the youth wing of Workers Power. What purpose does it serve? What purpose does being in it serve?

Actually the LRC youth has been growing and was an annoyance to the NOLS types who run the Young Labour conference, having some motions passed (I think on rent caps amongst other things).

As for it being an unpromising milieu - it is true that no amount of cut softening or soft-soap capitalist reform-mongering are relevant given the crisis. But at the same time people want to see a radical alternative being posed, including at the electoral level. Given that TUSC or any other putative new workers party aren't able to do this credibly, there is an appetite for a current which confronts the Labour party directly with the kind of programme that would be necessary were it really to represent the interests of those it was set up to represent.
Make the lives of career politicians as uncomfortable as possible by raising hell on their own doorsteps. Given that realistically only a Labour vote is going to keep the vicious Con/LD parties out of power this is a politically and strategically critical space.

 

[articul8]

It was predictable, at least in broad outline. The only surprising part was how quickly the process happened. 99 times out of a hundred these days if some political radical decides to join Labour it means that they are either going into retirement from activism or that they are drastically shifting their politics to the right.

I must be 1 in 100.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Bit cheeky doing a PhD on your mates and then jumping ship . . . but he's always seemed like a good bloke on his blog and elsewhere.

There's no such thing as a good assistant to a Blairite MP. Whether he's personally pleasant or not is about as relevant as whether or not a Tory is kind to animals.

 

[articul8]

There's the odd fool in amongst the knaves.

I am but mad north-north-west. When the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I must be 1 in 100.

See my response to Love Detective above.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Actually the LRC youth has been growing

I'm sure it has, but it's still smaller than Revo. Just think about that for a second. The youth wing of the only remaining leftist current in Labour is smaller than the youth wing of a piddling little Spartoid sect. What does that tell you?

As for it being an unpromising milieu - it is true that no amount of cut softening or soft-soap capitalist reform-mongering are relevant given the crisis. But at the same time people want to see a radical alternative being posed, including at the electoral level. Given that TUSC or any other putative new workers party aren't able to do this credibly, there is an appetite for a current which confronts the Labour party directly with the kind of programme that would be necessary were it really to represent the interests of those it was set up to represent.
Make the lives of career politicians as uncomfortable as possible by raising hell on their own doorsteps. Given that realistically only a Labour vote is going to keep the vicious Con/LD parties out of power this is a politically and strategically critical space.

Where is this "appetite"? Why hasn't this "appetite" resulted in the LRC growing to a point where it can at least out-mobilise the AWL? What "raising hell" does the LRC actually do for that matter? How exactly to they "make the lives of career politicians" miserable, when in fact those career politician couldn't give a flying fuck about it because it's entirely impotent?

You see, if the LRC was actually a strong, growing, current able to mobilise even a couple of thousand and possessed of a reasoned strategy, I still wouldn't think that being in Labour was a good idea. But it wouldn't be so obviously stupid as it is when the LRC is a complete fucking irrelevance, barely able to mobilise a couple of hundred and with no prospect of that changing.

 

[articul8]

LRC have only very recently sought to develop any youth wing - and there have only recently been any democratic structures to Young Labour to have made it worthwhile to start specifically organising as a youth current inside the party. In terms of influence over the political ideas of young people I would say that John McDonnell has more of a profile than Taaffe, Matgamna or anyone else leading a small sect

As for "entirely impotent" - we'll what's the baseline for comparison? TUSC?

 

[treelover]

Ok, so we agree that this is meaningless.



So, we agree that the Labour left outside the LRC is "moribund and decaying", not to mention tiny and elderly. I'll even go so far as to agree that the LRC does indeed "face outwards" more than the rest of what's left of the Labour left. But we should be clear that the LRC itself is tiny and for all that it is more vigorous than the rest of the crumpled remnants of the Lab left it can mobilise less people and actually does left than even groups on the scale of the AWL. It's been around for a few years now and it isn't having an impact in any field. The milieu its surrounded by - the Labour Party - is extremely unpromising in terms of attracting politically radical young people. Its attempt to set up a youth wing ended up involving fewer people than the youth wing of Workers Power. What purpose does it serve? What purpose does being in it serve?

When John MC had his leadership election rally it was packed with young people, etc...

 

[Nigel Irritable]

In terms of influence over the political ideas of young people I would say that John McDonnell has more of a profile than Taaffe, Matgamna or anyone else leading a small sect

Jesus fucking Christ, what a comparison!

Nobody knows who any of those people are. All of them are completely irrelevant to "the political ideas" of the overwhelming majority of young people. The only difference between them in terms of their political significance is that Peter is a leading figure in a tiny, politically marginal, group which happens to be ten times the size of the tiny, politically marginal, groups that the other two are leading figures in. But that's tallest dwarf in the circus territory, not a big claim for the real-world political significance of the Socialist Party.

As for "entirely impotent" - we'll what's the baseline for comparison? TUSC?

Pick any baseline you like. The LRC is a complete fucking irrelevance no matter who or what you compare them to. Nobody gives a shit about them inside or outside the Labour Party. It's a few dozen bewildered old lefties huddling together for warmth and wondering where everyone went. They have no strategy. They do nothing of importance. It is a complete and utter waste of time.