Appealing against sacking. Request for support

[eatmorecheese]

My stepson was sacked recently from a retail job for theft and he is appealing this. The alleged theft occured three years ago when the establishment was a franchise; the allegation centres around him purchasing an item directly from the franchisee (who then lost the franchise for being well dodgy with the accounts).

I'm trying to support as best I can, but I'm no longer a union rep and apparently can't attend the appeal. We are trying to get some legal help should the appeal not be successful. Does anyone have any advice for us? South London.

My stepson is a bit naive, but he isn't a thief. Every one of his colleagues were also sacked by head office, and then a new store franchise opened two doors down. How surprising. Smacks of constructive dismissal to me.

Thanks in advance for any advice or help, more details available. If not, thanks to the community for listening

 

[belboid]

That'd be unfair rather than constructive dismissal. He has a right to be accompanied by any TU worker, rep or colleague.

From what you've said there doesn't seem like much actual evidence, but it's hard to say more from here.

 

[purenarcotic]

I have nothing helpful to add except to say I’m sorry for yours / his troubles and I really hope you can get a positive outcome.

 

[eatmorecheese]

That'd be unfair rather than constructive dismissal. He has a right to be accompanied by any TU worker, rep or colleague.

From what you've said there doesn't seem like much actual evidence, but it's hard to say more from here.

Yep, he can be accompanied, but no reps available (and colleagues have already been dismissed).

The franchise was of a well known electronic exchange retail store. Allegation centres on the records showing that the store bought in a games console. My stepson yhen bought this directly from the franchisee. Months later stepson traded it in again. Unfortunately, franchisee did not run this transaction through the system and did it 'off the books'. So the record looks like the console was bought twice by the business and that stepson had pinched it before selling it in a few months later.
Urgh... sharks everywhere. I'm asking the previous franchisee for a statement and hope this will do the trick, he seems up for it...

 

[equationgirl]

Yep, he can be accompanied, but no reps available (and colleagues have already been dismissed).

The franchise was of a well known electronic exchange retail store. Allegation centres on the records showing that the store bought in a games console. My stepson yhen bought this directly from the franchisee. Months later stepson traded it in again. Unfortunately, franchisee did not run this transaction through the system and did it 'off the books'. So the record looks like the console was bought twice by the business and that stepson had pinched it before selling it in a few months later.
Urgh... sharks everywhere. I'm asking the previous franchisee for a statement and hope this will do the trick, he seems up for it...

Usual caveats, I am not a lawyer and am no longer a union rep.

First off, why has this arsen now? Three years post event seems an awful long time. Can you prove the previous franchise owner did not keep books properly?

Has your stepson given his version of events yet? If not, get him to write down everything he remembers about what happens, with any receipts or other proof such as bank statements showing the transaction.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

I've got no advice but with him well with his appeal. The situation sounds well dodgy - especially accusing him of a theft three years ago.

 

[two sheds]

I don't suppose he has insurance of any kind that might give legal cover?

Good luck though.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

think this needs more qualified advice than i can offer - union? CAB? ACAS? (ACAS do have a phone line that people can contact for advice)

first question might be whether the disciplinary hearing that led to the dismissal was carried out correctly.

is he in touch with former colleagues? were they all sacked on equally dubious grounds?

not sure if you have a right to have the appeal time / date changed if no union rep is available.

would possibly carry more weight at tribunal if employer is difficult about this.

my understanding is that the level of proof to sack someone for theft is less than the standard of proof to convict someone in a criminal trial, but with no evidence at all seems more than a little bit dodgy.

another tack might be the libel / defamation of character line, but you can't get legal aid for that sort of thing.

as might a brick or two through the windows of the 'new' place, although that might just be illegal...

 

[eatmorecheese]

Usual caveats, I am not a lawyer and am no longer a union rep.

First off, why has this arsen now? Three years post event seems an awful long time. Can you prove the previous franchise owner did not keep books properly?

Has your stepson given his version of events yet? If not, get him to write down everything he remembers about what happens, with any receipts or other proof such as bank statements showing the transaction.

This arose (in my opinion) because the Head Office stripped the franchise owner of the franchise, took over the branch and then have gradually dismissed every single person working there. Apparently there was a lot of dodginess going on around handling stolen goods,but they aren't claiming this about my stepson.

It appears clear that there are many discrepancies in how accounts were kept and about how corporate policies were ignored. But this is because that's how the previous owners of the franchise behaved, and they were my stepson's bosses.

He has already followed the disciplinary process and is now appealing the outcome. CAB have been very helpful so far. In fact, the latest email communication the employer has sent him, they have basically acknowledged that the allegation of theft isn't proven, but his lack of adherence to corporate conduct policy is grounds enough for dismissal. In essence, they have said that if his boss asked him to do something he should've consulted Head Office first. No reference to the power relationship that when your boss asks you to do something, you generally obey if you want to keep your job. Especially when you are in your early 20's and naive and have a young child to support. All the old staff team have been sacked, some of them on (as far as I can see) legitimate grounds of actual theft, using staff discounts inappropriately and making a quick buck without checking goods they are buying from customers through the till.

We need to set the appeal meeting date shortly. I can't help feeling that Head Office just wanted to re-sell the franchise and allow the new owners to recruit their own team and get rid of all the old staff, and that stepson has been caught in the middle. Worked there 9 years, key-holder, etc.

Thanks everyone for your replies, advice and sympathy

 

[equationgirl]

This arose (in my opinion) because the Head Office stripped the franchise owner of the franchise, took over the branch and then have gradually dismissed every single person working there. Apparently there was a lot of dodginess going on around handling stolen goods,but they aren't claiming this about my stepson.

It appears clear that there are many discrepancies in how accounts were kept and about how corporate policies were ignored. But this is because that's how the previous owners of the franchise behaved, and they were my stepson's bosses.

He has already followed the disciplinary process and is now appealing the outcome. CAB have been very helpful so far. In fact, the latest email communication the employer has sent him, they have basically acknowledged that the allegation of theft isn't proven, but his lack of adherence to corporate conduct policy is grounds enough for dismissal. In essence, they have said that if his boss asked him to do something he should've consulted Head Office first. No reference to the power relationship that when your boss asks you to do something, you generally obey if you want to keep your job. Especially when you are in your early 20's and naive and have a young child to support. All the old staff team have been sacked, some of them on (as far as I can see) legitimate grounds of actual theft, using staff discounts inappropriately and making a quick buck without checking goods they are buying from customers through the till.

We need to set the appeal meeting date shortly. I can't help feeling that Head Office just wanted to re-sell the franchise and allow the new owners to recruit their own team and get rid of all the old staff, and that stepson has been caught in the middle. Worked there 9 years, key-holder, etc.

Thanks everyone for your replies, advice and sympathy

It sounds like they want to avoid paying out redundancy, if they want to sell it on without staff. On the face of it, could be unfair dismissal as redundancy process was not followed, they swerved it with accusations of theft.

 

[equationgirl]

There's a public database on employment tribunal decisions, might be worth checking it to see if there's a track record of this sort of behaviour?

 

[farmerbarleymow]

my understanding is that the level of proof to sack someone for theft is less than the standard of proof to convict someone in a criminal trial, but with no evidence at all seems more than a little bit dodgy.

Balance of probabilities is used in disciplinaries at my place, and I guess it's the same everywhere.

There's a public database on employment tribunal decisions, might be worth checking it to see if there's a track record of this sort of behaviour?

The published decisions are here, and there is also balii which publishes loads of judgments from lots of courts.

 

[D'wards]

My pal used to own a certain high street computer game exchange franchise.
They did have a problem with staff buying an item (usually a mobile phone) off a member of the public, then putting it back through the books as another purchase and pocketing the money.

It sounds like the company are cleaning house of all those that did this and your stepson has been caught up in it due to it not going through the books properly.
Its hard to prove either way I'd say

 

[eatmorecheese]

Update:

His old manager (and owner of the franchise) has prepared a written statement saying that he ordered him to break procedures on the occasions he's cited. Result. His appeal is also written, with ACAS assistance, and submitted.

And another result: Stepson got a job offer! Luckily, they took references before it kicked off and were waiting for a vacancy. He's off to do the night shifts at Waitrose

So now this battle is purely about his integrity (and making sure they have to spend money justifying their decision). Heat is off a bit...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

at it so far.

still worth pursuing the appeal (and tribunal if they balls the appeal process up) - does sound like they are trying to avoid redundancy pay more than anything else.

is he in touch with (former) colleagues who also got the sack on presumably similarly dodgy grounds?

 

[eatmorecheese]

at it so far.

still worth pursuing the appeal (and tribunal if they balls the appeal process up) - does sound like they are trying to avoid redundancy pay more than anything else.

is he in touch with (former) colleagues who also got the sack on presumably similarly dodgy grounds?

Yes. Some have just taken it, others resigned or found better offers. Some, though, were caught pretty much bang to rights (trading in stolen goods and other dodginess). The previous franchisee was the dodgiest of the lot.

However, I think he has simply been caught up in this. We've highlighted the discrepancies in the Staff Handbook that both clearly states he should take direct management instruction or else risk a disciplinary or being dismissed, versus escalating an issue to Head Office behind the back of his mansger, who actually owned the business. The interview transcripts were handwritten, illegible and funnily inaccurate, getting dates and the names of colleagues wrong.

It all seems amateur and superficial. Would be funny if it didn't seriously fuck people over. Obviously it's up to stepson, but I think we should follow this through.

 

[farmerbarleymow]

That's a good and promising turn eatmorecheese

And good that he's got a job in Waitrose.

 

[equationgirl]

Best of luck eatmorecheese tribunals are stressful.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Update:

Company tied to use coronavirus as the reason not to hold the appeal meeting. We insisted, so they set it up on Zoom.

Stepson's partner was amazing. As a former union rep myself, I seriously think she should get more involved in union activities. Demolished 'em.

He has been given his job back. As he has a new one, he will resign, get paid to date and they need to inform universal Credit so that they rescind their own evil sanctions for being sacked. Bills can be paid, with maybe a little left over.

About the best result we could've hoped for. Thanks once again to the advice and empathy of the Urban massive

 

[Puddy_Tat]

 

[equationgirl]

So pleased it worked out for him eatmorecheese well done all round.

 

[dessiato]

Excellent news.

Now could the others they did this to also take them to a tribunal?

 

[StoneRoad]

That's a very good result !

 

[JimW]

 

[eatmorecheese]

Excellent news.

Now could the others they did this to also take them to a tribunal?

Yes, possibly

Some were dismissed on fair grounds for theft tbh, the working culture was toxic and the franchise owners were basically crooks. Heigh ho.

ETA: The manager holding the appeal was from their Polish office,and he got the point instantly that the workplace culture and corruption of the franchise holders led him into making difficult ethical choices. Maybe an advantage of remote working and teleconferencing, getting someone completely removed from UK working practices?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Well done mate. It’s always worth going that extra mile in confrontations with employers/bureaucracy. Even if you lose it gives you a warm glow all over. (Well, it does me, anyhow)

 

[Chilli.s]

Great news!