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Anelka's quenelle

Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.

Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.

I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit :D
 
frogwoman said:
Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.

Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.

I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit :D
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you have to listen to it to know just how shit it is
 
MellySingsDoom said:
I think that context is needed, and the musician's own position made clear when touching upon this subject. T Gristle caused a stink when their Industrial Records logo was originally positively commented on for its aesthetic look, then slammed by a fair few people when they revealed that the photo was taken from Auschwitz. TG were engaged in what they called an "information war", where they explored subjects then deemed to be taboo/unsayable at the time, and they explored all sorts of subjects (and sounds, of course). I think that time has vindicated TG's position, and you can't really blame them for inspiring a whole bunch of groups who completely missed the point TG were trying to make, and simply tried to outdo each other in the offensiveness stakes (e.g Kevin Tomkins penning pro-Reynhard Heydrich lyrics in 1982), and you end up with feckwits like Streicher penning such numbers as "For Race And Nation" and "Aryan Stormtroopers".

I still think Gen's lyrics on "Zyklon..." err on the crap side, though.
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I think they and their arguments are crap and they were doing simple shock shit. Middlebrow shit for weekend nazis. That WAS the point. This whole hidden info nonsense is something that only a teenage kid who had done literally 5 seconds research could come up with. Almost the whole of post war mainstream history is concerned with this hidden info ffs. Twats.
 
Ffs this band signed by candlelight records has brought out a album called 'the virus conspires'

Tracks include 'red terror' and 'titan'

That is in no way dodgy lol
 
butchersapron said:
I think they and their arguments are crap and they were doing simple shock shit. Middlebrow shit for weekend nazis. That WAS the point. This whole hidden info nonsense is something that only a teenage kid who had done literally 5 seconds research could come up with. Almost the whole of post war mainstream history is concerned with this hidden info ffs. Twats.
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Points taken and understood. You've reminded me that they did a song
called "Subhuman", and that is
definitely dodgy, from what I can recall.

I guess what I was trying to explain (and did badly, on reflection) was that this outfit were doing stuff that hadn't really been covered that much in music (I'm happy to be corrected on that point). TG definitely did influence both weekend Nazis and actual fascists on the music front, as time has shown (hence K Tomkins and Streicher).

You've already made me consider that at the time, you had fascist groups causing real violence and misery on communities, and that they openly deployed fascist imagery as well. Considering this, they were really playing with fire with the Auschwitz pics etc, and should have thought through the implications of what they were getting into.

I hold my hands up that I was pretty clueless about a lot of history and TG's references in my much younger days - it took me learning from all the right places and basically growing up that led me to question stuff myself, including the whole transgression business (which is a dead end and does up being both predictable and also objectionable).

With that in mind, I think it's right that I withdraw the whole "TG were vindicated" remark I made, and thank you for pulling me up on this. Note to self: learn to engage brain and think things through before posting here in future.
 
butchersapron said:
Auschwitz = taboo/unsayable at the time/1979? Really? That's why a museum was built on the site in 1947 and it was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site the same year that shite was churned out.
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Again, I really, really should have engaged brain and thought things through before posting that "unsayable" stuff. You're absolutely right - not only on the whole museum/UNESCO site thing, but also the ongoing education and testimony from survivors, organisations and historians on the Holocaust and the Nazi regime in general.

Sorry everyone - consider myself correctly bollocked for this, and I hold my hands up in being a clueless arse
on this one. These things are worth getting right, after all.
 
frogwoman said:
Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.

Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.

I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit :D
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Bit of a discussion re Politically dodge Black Metal bands. You might have seen it. (I've not read all of this thread.)
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/black-metal-that-is-not-politically-dodge.316565/
 
frogwoman said:
Formed in 2007 with the intention of honouring England’s proud ancestral heritage and rich national culture, WINTERFYLLETH (comprised of members culled from the UK’s most devastating doom contingent ATAVIST) set a solidified mission statement to bring awareness to England’s historical stories, folklore, landscapes and ancestral past through their folk-influenced vitriolic black metal.

Coining the term English Heritage Black Metal (EHBM), Winterfylleth (which translates into Winter Full Moon from the Olde English language) represents the first full moon in October as well as the Anglo-Saxon festival of the arrival of winter.

I don't even have to listen to thst to know it's shit :D
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give me good old fashioned floridan death metal any day...
 
butchersapron said:
Auschwitz = taboo/unsayable at the time/1979? Really? That's why a museum was built on the site in 1947 and it was declared a UNESCO World Heritage Site the same year that shite was churned out.
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My German teacher - she is both a teacher of German, and German - was telling me this morning that a Hitchcock documentary about the camps, made in 1945 but never shown, has been discovered in the archives in UK.
 
Idris2002 said:
My German teacher - she is both a teacher of German, and German - was telling me this morning that a Hitchcock documentary about the camps, made in 1945 but never shown, has been discovered in the archives in UK.
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Its being worked on and will be shown on UK TV next year according to recent press reports:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...caust-documentary-to-be-screened-9044945.html

Since a not-so-well restored version was shown on US TV in the 1980's, I believe there are clips on archive.org and youtube. Not tried to watch it myself but a search for 'Memory of the Camps' will probably reveal the horror.
 
I have a copy of it - it's not really a hitchcock thing, he was more of the concepts organiser and general advisor. It was footage shot by a large group of people. None of them doing the quenelle. It was produced to show the german soldiers and population not for general release, and because of the period in which it was made it omits lots of stuff - primarily about what the holocaust was - that we know about today but that they simply didn't at the time.
 
The Trevor Howard voiceover narration in Memory of the Camps is strangely reminiscent of the one that director Carol Reed himself read over the opening of The Third Man (in which Howard co-starred.) It has the same sardonic understatement as it describes the devastation wreaked by the war. In the new version, the words will remain (but have now been recorded by a contemporary actor.)[/QUOTE]

I bet its Cumberbatch
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Polish prosecutor: 'Auschwitz' football chants are not anti-Semitic

"Move on, Jews! Your home is at Auschwitz! Send you to the gas (chamber)!" These are comments that you might expect to hear in 1940s Europe, but in 2014? Apparently yes, according to a Polish municipal prosecutor in Poznan, who decided this week that chants by football fans are not criminal offenses".

"The incident, which happened during a Polish league game between Lech Poznan and Widzew Lodz on September 29, 2013, has sparked debate over the country's attitude towards anti-Semitism... Prosecutor Monika Rutkowsk decided not to take any action against the Poznan fans on the grounds that their chants were directed at the opposing team and not specifically at Jews".

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/15/sport/football/poland-football-anti-semitism/
 
Fedayn said:
Kenan Malik on the issue....

http://kenanmalik.wordpress.com/2014/01/15/dieudonne-the-clown-of-the-anti-age/
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I thought that was a good piece, but at the same time is there not a risk of playing it up a bit too much (I know ive probably done it myself on this thread so I apologize)

I'd say that a lot of the antisemitism I've experienced has been from 'political' types or people that see themselves that way and that it doesn't exist to the same extent once you get out of that bubble. I am not saying it doesn't exist at all because I've experienced it but a lot of it was from people who probably see themselves as on the left or being well informed about politics anyway.

I think there's a risk of like making it bigger than it currently is? And I know when I've heard antisemitic stuff I often panic and think that its increased, and it has, but like how much in reality? It's still, with the majority of the public, completely unacceptable in a way that some other types of racism aren't always, and in fact I'd say that for some people that may be part of its appeal
 
By that I don't mean that most people are racist or whatever but I think outside of political contexts its a bit more unusual to hear it than say people talking about Muslims etc? (Although with any minority most people are a lot less prejudiced than a lot of leftists think) And I think a huge reason why its unacceptable is because of the war and the fact that its associated with Nazism.

Like its definitely increased in my view but I don't think it has really got that bad amomg most of the public. And like to the extent it has increased I think the 'traditional' left bears some responsibility tbh
 
Corporate dollar seems to have made up its mind about Anelka.

West Bromwich Albion’s sponsor, Zoopla, warned the club on Friday night to axe Nicolas Anelka or risk their lucrative shirt deal being scrapped.

Zoopla, a property and house prices website company, has delivered an ultimatum to Albion by threatening to pull out of its contract if Anelka plays in the Premier League game against Everton at the Hawthorns on Monday night.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...icolas-Anelkas-quenelle-goal-celebration.html
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I dunno, out of all the people I have day to day contact with (people I work with, people I live with etc) I don't think any of them are antisemites, if they are they're hiding it so well that it's not worth thinking about. I worked in a warehouse for six months in 2011 and never once heard any anti-semitic remarks during that time, I heard racism from time to time but not very much of it. From things I experienced when I was younger and stuff mates have told me its more likely to be a problem in the Muslim community

I've experienced a bit of anti-semitism but I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as what my grandma experienced or even what my dad did. I know it's bad in some parts of the country and I've heard horrible stuff from mates etc. I think its quite bad in some schools etc but I'll say that for every antisemitic cunt I've encountered there are hundreds more people who are fucking horrified by it. I think there's a risk of playing up its significance which could become a self fulfilling prophecy in a way.

I dunno, I don't think this is a defining feature of politics or what the public think, I think that the appeal of antisemitism for many people comes out of its very unacceptability and the feeling that they know something that the rest of the public don't, taboos, 'uncomfortable truths' etc, I also think that the fact that you find conspiracy theories being quite popular in things like the underground rave scene (which despite what people may think has never comprised a majority of the public or even young people) and various protest movements etc sort of demonstrates this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist outside this but I think its still fairly marginal tbh, I also think its quite a middle class prejudice as well and the people I have known to be antisemitic would have certainly looked down on 'sun readers' and the like and considered most working class people to be stupid and uneducated (and they would probably not imagine themselves to be on the right or racist)

Slightly off topic but I'm reminded of some years ago when I was doing leafleting for an anti cuts meeting and one of the people doing it with me was moaning about how shoppers were just walking past and ignoring us and saying that they had their eyes closed and didn't want to know, that they didn't understand how they didn't care about it etc. At the time I was thinking that they may be busy or have other stuff on their minds, not taking a leaflet for a meeting doesn't mean you don't care. But I think that this type of mentality might be like a fertile ground for an antisemitic mentality, thinking that you know better about these like 'hidden truths' or whatever than everyone else - not saying she was antisemitic obviously but I think this kind of culture of thinking you know better than everyone brcause you 'know about politics' can kind of lend itself to conspiracism and that sort of thing.

I may be talking bollocks of course but most of the places I've worked I never experienced anything like that, when I did experience it it was shocking because it was so unusual and I didn't expect to hear those types of opinions at work, I certainly think its something to be worried about but from my experience it's rejected by the vast majority of people.
 
frogwoman said:
Slightly off topic but I'm reminded of some years ago when I was doing leafleting for an anti cuts meeting and one of the people doing it with me was moaning about how shoppers were just walking past and ignoring us and saying that they had their eyes closed and didn't want to know, that they didn't understand how they didn't care about it etc. At the time I was thinking that they may be busy or have other stuff on their minds, not taking a leaflet for a meeting doesn't mean you don't care. But I think that this type of mentality might be like a fertile ground for an antisemitic mentality, thinking that you know better about these like 'hidden truths' or whatever than everyone else - not saying she was antisemitic obviously but I think this kind of culture of thinking you know better than everyone brcause you 'know about politics' can kind of lend itself to conspiracism and that sort of thing.
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I understand that you've posted this anecdote with numerous caveats attached, and so my comment is not really aimed at you specifically.

But what you describe here is getting more common, I think. People are basically seeing anti-semitism wherever they want to see it. It's fear of prejudice as neurosis.

You're lucky to be sufficiently self-aware to see this process operating within your mind, and to reflect critically upon it. But others are not so self-aware. Such people are easy prey for unscrupulous agitators who would exploit their anxieties for their own ends.
 
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