You can say many things about Phil, but he's definately not dull.
Anelka's quenelle
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xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
he is a bit, er, blinkered in his outlook
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
and yet for some reason I still really enjoy Pilgrims Progress. I most identify with the slough of despond tbf.
TruXta
tired
Never read it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
:mustrefrainfrompostinghunnersofdeathmetal:
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so, the more barking people's beliefs are the more they should be respected?
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
think hes making the point that religious belief respect advocates often have the tendency to allow forceful critique of all belief systems out there barring their own..
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
its good- Bunyan. I think why its gained ground as such a 'canon' prod text is because of the whole personal responsibility thing- although old Pilgrim is happy to dump his wife and kids to go on his own penance journey!
that aside it stands as a good fantasy, even if its a bit dodge. One of those like 'Screwtape proposes a toast' type ones where the message is disagreed with by me but the writing is good.
You have to consider the alternative fogbat.
TruXta
tired
Maybe one for my dotage.
Thank you.
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
its funny when i went through the growing my hair long and calling myself a satanist whilst being a vegetarian phase my staunchly catholic family rolled their eyes and gave a collective sigh... when i became a fundamentalist muslim though....
elbows
Well-Known Member
When people use their beliefs as justification for attacking others, for preaching hate and intolerance, then I consider it very much everyones business.
I am capable of a gentle and compassionate appreciation of the idea of respecting others personal beliefs. But in practice this cannot offer the faithful a complete shield against their beliefs being questioned. Because beliefs do not remain in the personal realm, they have an impact on society, its accepted norms, customs and laws. And it is used to justify many things, including the unjustifiable. Silence and impotent respect in the face of this is unacceptable.
Its a difficult balancing act and it can be very hard to get right. Over the last decade+ I have been rather unimpressed with the tone of certain attacks against muslims for example, including the language used and the calls to use force to bring about change. This includes things like certain Question Time performances by the likes of Clive James who is, it seems, extremely well respected in most other regards. The ouster of Morsi in Egypt was certainly an opportunity to put some of this stuff to the test, it made it easy for some to cheer the coup or turn a blind eye to slaughter.
TruXta
tired
Personally I like to think it's possible to have the utmost respect for the fact that others have beliefs that I, as a non-believer, consider untrue (i.e. there is a god/gods/goddesses/whatever). That doesn't extend to the contents of those beliefs if I believe them harmful to others.
Fedayn
Well-Known Member
When religion has been used, and still is, to justify racism, homophobia, slavery, physical and sexual abuse of your partner, female genital mutilation, male circumcision, sexism etc etc what reason would you not attack it?
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
Thats it, i mean at the end of the day, metaphysical beliefs on their own are pretty inconsquential to how things operate in society, and i think if someones whole sense of existential telos is tied to such metaphyiscal beliefs, then its just plain nasty-ness to put them under attack. i mean, just see what happens when you deconstruct before their very eyes the very thing that gives a person a reason for getting up in the morning - it aint nice....
the problem with religions in general is that such metaphysical beliefs are generally conjoined onto certain social attitudes and it is in that domain that it is right and proper that people get held accountable for that. And i guess insofar as such social attitudes are predicated on the theology then i guess the theology has to be under scruitiny as well, unless of course they desist from articulating their theology onto the social realm.
i should also say that religious prosletyisers often are in the buisness of attacking deeply held metaphysical propositions of other religions that are conjoined onto their sense of existential purpose. and thats whats real nasty about religious prosletysing discourse, that it often involves a savage attack upon the very reasons why people get up in the morning.... all one needs to do is walk into certain churches and mosques etc and see leaflets that engage in that kinda buisness...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
nail them all up and let god sort them out
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
The alternative being a society like Saudi Arabia where 'respecting' religious views is mandatory even when those views involve beheading people for adultery etc because its part of their beliefs, hey why not. And religious critique is how all religions came about.
And I'm sorry but in another thread you said that thinking that only good people go to heaven and paedophiles and the like wouldn't was horrible and judging who is worthy of God's love, I don't have a problem with you thinking that because fair enough, its part of Christianity that all who believe shall be able to get redemption etc, but the idea of heaven being for good people only no matter what they believe, is one of the major features of Judaism as opposed to Christianity. I don't have a problem with people criticizing that, in some ways it's fair enough and I'm not sure what I think about it, but then again its a bit hypocritical for you to turn round and say that I can't criticize religious beliefs when you did the same? Anyway I think you're sound and I didn't want to upset you, I'm just saying?
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Exactly.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Like you just didn't! You seen to me to be claiming special protection for your views, both to protect them from attack and to allow you to attack others.
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
I think what tends to happen is that there is the official theology that one 'officially' assents to, and then there is ones personal interpretation of that theology that is generally a bit more universal in the salvation plan than what the religion itself might demand. (that being said even within religions, there can be multiple interpretations like for instance the quibbling over that verse that has both "my fathers masion has many rooms" and "no one comes to the father except through me"...)
Then again theres the more hardcore believers that are like, everybody is fucked except the wee church of 26 people that i am a part of
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
Then again theres the more hardcore believers that are like, everybody is fucked except the wee church of 26 people that i am a part of
I've met people back in the day who are dead blase about the idea that their close relatives are going to hell (like siblings, children and partners etc). I mean they still love em, but they are getting hellfire - pretty mental how people can hold that shit together
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
TruXta
tired
Maybe there is one out there with normal-sized hands?There is no "alternative fogbat"! He's unique!!!
Thank fuck!!!
I disagree.
I think that all Thatcher, Blair et al care about is profit. They'll be bigots for exactly as long as it is profitable, and not one second longer.
And at present, bigotry is bad for business. If it were good for business you may be sure it would be officially encouraged.
You wot?
xslavearcx
time for a nu-metal revival?
try distributing the text and then i was guided in saudi arabia which gives an excellent case for the truth of 12er shiism based on sunni canonical sources, and see what happens