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Anelka's quenelle

phildwyer said:
Once again, the resort to ad hominem signals capitulation.

I've been asking for an idea--just one--of Dieudonne's that can accurately be called "right-wing" for several days now. Nobody can give me one.
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TBF, calling you a "dullard" isn't an ad hominem so much as it is an attempt at elucidating your defining feature. :)
 
elbows said:
I also have a problem with the idea that faiths and beliefs should not be attacked because of the great comfort and strength they can provide to the faithful. Because the same logic can be applied to, for example, anti-semitism. I'm sure many an anti-semite gets comfort and strength from having a nice simple explanation for the ills of the world and the problems they've faced in their own life.
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Why 'attack' another's religion ffs. Just fucking mind your own business.
 
Edie said:
Frogwoman is entitled to her opinions about Christian beliefs. I think she should be aware when she's expressing them not to sound scathing though.
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I'll be as scathing :p as I like. Sorry but I find much of what is said in the new testament really objectionable. And if someone starts giving me a lecture about how 'they' put Jesus on the cross and how everything that happened to the Jews was our fault because it was in a biblical prophecy, that homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage shouldn't be allowed to exist, then I think having been exposed to that stuff gives me the right to think and say what I want tbh.
 
Edie said:
Listen we live in a world where people have an enormous range of beliefs. I think it's perfectly acceptable to both express and challenge beliefs but I'd say it should be done with respect and not from a starting position of assuming you're right and the other person is wrong when it comes to religious beliefs. Is that hippy bullshit? Maybe. But tolerance is pretty important.
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So why couldn't the street-preacher ranting at froggie see that?
See, this is a problem with most organised religions, Edie: Some followers have a tendency to assume that they do come from a "starting position of being right", and Christianity being a proselytising religion (i.e. followers go out to garner converts) means that there can be a lot of zealous, single-minded Christians walking around in Europe and the US, shouting the odds for their various sects and cults.
 
Edie said:
Listen we live in a world where people have an enormous range of beliefs. I think it's perfectly acceptable to both express and challenge beliefs but I'd say it should be done with respect and not from a starting position of assuming you're right and the other person is wrong when it comes to religious beliefs. Is that hippy bullshit? Maybe. But tolerance is pretty important.
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I don't think I'm right and the other person is wrong. I WANT people to tell me I'm talking shit.
 
frogwoman said:
I'll be as scathing :p as I like. Sorry but I find much of what is said in the new testament really objectionable. And if someone starts giving me a lecture about how 'they' put Jesus on the cross and how everything that happened to the Jews was our fault because it was in a biblical prophecy, that homosexuality is a sin and gay marriage shouldn't be allowed to exist, then I think having been exposed to that stuff gives me the right to think and say what I want tbh.
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Jesus WAS a Jew for goodness sake.
 
ViolentPanda said:
So why couldn't the street-preacher ranting at froggie see that?
See, this is a problem with most organised religions, Edie: Some followers have a tendency to assume that they do come from a "starting position of being right", and Christianity being a proselytising religion (i.e. followers go out to garner converts) means that there can be a lot of zealous, single-minded Christians walking around in Europe and the US, shouting the odds for their various sects and cults.
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one of the more nauseating US christian phrases for this is 'Soul winning'. Fucking permanent war,losses gains victory/defeat...always so binary.

in use here is the much less objectionable word 'evangelising'

dunno why the former annoys more than the latter really.
 
ViolentPanda give it a rest. 1) it's too easy 2) it's a very low blow 3) using things from elsewhere to get at him (no matter how much he might deserve it) on here isn't on.
 
ViolentPanda said:
So why couldn't the street-preacher ranting at froggie see that?
See, this is a problem with most organised religions, Edie: Some followers have a tendency to assume that they do come from a "starting position of being right", and Christianity being a proselytising religion (i.e. followers go out to garner converts) means that there can be a lot of zealous, single-minded Christians walking around in Europe and the US, shouting the odds for their various sects and cults.
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The thing is that you're talking about respect for others beliefs but the whole point is that some people's beliefs don't respect others. And some of what is said is just wrong and really offensive, like the idea that the Jews killed Jesus and that sort of shit, you may not believe that but plenty of people do and that has an effect on how they behave. After all god himself has said that the Jews are a den of vipers and the blood is on them snd all that other shit and that's going to have an effect when they come across people in everyday life and how they treat them and their general political outlook.
Edie
I'm really sorry you think I'm attacking all Christians, I really never wanted to upset you. I've tried to make clear that most people DON'T believe this stuff and are just normal people, the same as most Jews don't believe the bollocks about amalek and Palestinians, unfortunately some do.
 
Just like anti-semitic and racist ideas and the people that convey them need attacking, so any religious idea that clearly leads to misery and violence needs attacking. I don't see how this is controversial at all.
 
Edie said:
Jesus WAS a Jew for goodness sake.
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Yeah, I know. It doesn't change the fact this is what SOME people think and given that these kinds of attitudes have actually led to such awful results and given that these beliefs had such a huge impact on the development of antisemitism, homophobia etc in western culture I think I've got every right to slag them off if they're going to use God and religion to piously say that saying this shit is all right. Same goes for Jewish fundamentalists thinking whatever they think, I actually think discouraging criticism of/within religions is really dangerous.
 
DotCommunist said:
one of the more nauseating US christian phrases for this is 'Soul winning'. Fucking permanent war,losses gains victory/defeat...always so binary.

in use here is the much less objectionable word 'evangelising'

dunno why the former annoys more than the latter really.
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Because the latter is an injunction in the New Testament (or so I believe), that asks believers to go forth and "spread the good news", whereas the former is a mechanistic process of garnering numbers of souls for the chosen deity - fulfill your quota for the day/week/month/year and the pastor gives you a celestial Brownie point to add to your "going to Heaven" score - or some such?
 
ViolentPanda said:
Because the latter is an injunction in the New Testament (or so I believe), that asks believers to go forth and "spread the good news", whereas the former is a mechanistic process of garnering numbers of souls for the chosen deity - fulfill your quota for the day/week/month/year and the pastor gives you a celestial Brownie point to add to your "going to Heaven" score - or some such?
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The vicars' KPIs?
 
TruXta said:
Just like anti-semitic and racist ideas and the people that convey them need attacking, so any religious idea that clearly leads to misery and violence needs attacking. I don't see how this is controversial at all.
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It isn't controversial, except perhaps to a controversialist, IYSWIM. ;)
 
ViolentPanda said:
Because the latter is an injunction in the New Testament (or so I believe), that asks believers to go forth and "spread the good news", whereas the former is a mechanistic process of garnering numbers of souls for the chosen deity - fulfill your quota for the day/week/month/year and the pastor gives you a celestial Brownie point to add to your "going to Heaven" score - or some such?
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posibly. It also reminds me of the loony end baptist/us influenced stuff about a constant spiritual war going on. Demons under the bed. The penalties for not being christian and not accepting jesus. All the shit that scared me as a child when its really a product of one nuerotic strand of one sub division of one faith. Onwards christian fucking soldier.
 
DotCommunist said:
posibly. It also reminds me of the loony end baptist/us influenced stuff about a constant spiritual war going on. Demons under the bed. The penalties for not being christian and not accepting jesus. All the shit that scared me as a child when its really a product of one nuerotic strand of one sub division of one faith. Onwards christian fucking soldier.
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It's not just the baptists IIRC, the pentecostals and Jehovah's Witnesses are dipping their toes in that water too.
 
DotCommunist said:
posibly. It also reminds me of the loony end baptist/us influenced stuff about a constant spiritual war going on. Demons under the bed. The penalties for not being christian and not accepting jesus. All the shit that scared me as a child when its really a product of one nuerotic strand of one sub division of one faith. Onwards christian fucking soldier.
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This is what fucked me off about the evangelist I was stuck working with - it was all so stark, and so far away from the whole "prince of peace" schtick that's more the norm in religious education about Christianity in the UK that the fact of violent fundamentalism was really a bit scary.
 
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