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Anelka's quenelle

Anyway, I don't have time to do the Socratic thing today, so I'll just finish a thought here.

If you really want to argue for a massive difference between extreme "left" and extreme "right," the most promising basis on which to do so is not theoretical but empirical. The fact that "Leftists" and "Rightists" have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for almost a century is indeed a powerful argument for their nonalignment.

Powerful but ultimately unpersuasive. Young men will fight about anything.
 
LiamO said:
I also saw the Spurs full-back (apparently) taking the piss out of Anelka by congratulating him on his perfect quenelle and suggesting he come do it at Spurs as it would go down so well there. Unfortunately I dont know french, much less twitter-speak french slang so I cannot fathom quite whether he was calling Anelka a silly boy (a la Paul Gascoigne) or something more sinister. Whether it was a case of 'you daft cunt' or 'you malignant cunt'. And yes... who, how and in what circumstance it is used does fundamentally alter the meaning of most gestures..
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You didn't even get this right. He sent Anelka a congratulation then on top of that sent the anti-semitic originator a message saying that he wanted him to come to spurs and perform it as that be would be proper lol what with spurs having the rep of being a jewish club. Another, yet another example of the behind the backs sniggering at hah hah look we hate jews together but they don't know bullshit that you seem to be having problems coming to grips with. So, get cracking on oputting that in context (millionaires not alienated banlieu dwellers - and the bloke who came up with was born into top 1% privilege, has lived it his whole life and has known nothing but that 1% privilege). You lazy lazy man. Can't be bothered to read but demands others expand. Then doesn't bother following the implications when they do.
 
LiamO said:
I would still like to know how the meaning of this gesture evolved. I

BA and others insist there is/can be only one meaning (and after this week's events we have certainly moved a step nearer to that universal interpretation) but even a cursory reading of the webz tells me that lots of french people regarded it and widely used it as an anti-establishment 'up-yours' gesture.

Tony Parker, Sami Nasri and the others all used it in this way (or would BA allege they are anti-semites too?). Anelka obviously has far less excuse/wriggle-room on account of his personal friendship with yer man. But the fact remains that Dieudonne presented it originally as an 'anti-establishment' gesture. Has the gesture evolved as he has? Has it taken on a life of it's own.
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Aprt from me not ever arguing it only has one meaning and the people that you mention removing themselves from association with because they - not me - believe it now has only only one meaning - that of anti-semitism, i have to congratulate you on a stunning piece of cultural interrogation on page 27 of the thread.
 
cesare said:
Some examples of "nonracist anticapitalists" being?
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Sorry, missed this earlier. I presume you mean "examples of nonracist anticapitaists who've been stupidly branded Right-wing?"

Timothy McVeigh.

Here is an ostensibly nice, normal, well-adjusted, apolitical young chap who takes a good look around him and decides to blow up the FBI.

If I were in a position of authority, that would seriously trouble me. There are people on this thread who should be paying attention, as opposed to mithering on about "quenelle this" and "fash that" and having silly little punch-ups.
 
phildwyer said:
Sorry, missed this earlier. I presume you mean "examples of nonracist anticapitaists who've been stupidly branded Right-wing?"

Timothy McVeigh.

Here is an ostensibly nice, normal, well-adjusted, apolitical young chap who takes a good look around him and decides to blow up the FBI.

If I were in a position of authority, that would seriously trouble me. There are people on this thread who should be paying attention, as opposed to mithering on about "quenelle this" and "fash that" and having silly little punch-ups.
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No, I meant what I asked. But by all means use my question as a vehicle for saying whatever it is you wanted to say about this McVeigh character.
 
butchersapron said:
You didn't even get this right. He sent Anelka a congratulation then on top of that sent the anti-semitic originator a message saying that he wanted him to come to spurs and perform it as that be would be proper lol what with spurs having the rep of being a jewish club. Another, yet another example of the behind the backs sniggering at hah hah look we hate jews together but they don't know bullshit that you seem to be having problems coming to grips with. So, get cracking on oputting that in context (millionaires not alienated banlieu dwellers - and the bloke who came up with was born into top 1% privilege, has lived it his whole life and has known nothing but that 1% privilege). You lazy lazy man. Can't be bothered to read but demands others expand. Then doesn't bother following the implications when they do.
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LiamO said:
I ask these things, not for pedantry, but because a cultural phenomenon that is apparently deeply anti-semetic (as all the photos show how it has been used by the Right) is also apparently seen as 'sticking it to the man' in some quarters, especially those 'down wit the yoot' en france. I can't really think of an equivalent phenomenon in britain. This is deeply disturbing and worthy of discussion.
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Yes, some of us have been trying to for a while now - on this very thread.
 
LiamO said:
Definitely not looking for a row here but is the author actually claiming that there is some new research/evidence that claims there was no extermination at Auschwitz?
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First I got distracted by what 'officially' even means in this context. Then I got distracted by the tons of steaming shite that the author, Gordon Duff, has come out with elsewhere. Wikileaks and Snowden painted as simple tools of Israel for a start. I don't think I'll bother exploring further.
 
phildwyer said:
Anyway, I don't have time to do the Socratic thing today, so I'll just finish a thought here.

If you really want to argue for a massive difference between extreme "left" and extreme "right," the most promising basis on which to do so is not theoretical but empirical. The fact that "Leftists" and "Rightists" have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for almost a century is indeed a powerful argument for their nonalignment.

Powerful but ultimately unpersuasive. Young men will fight about anything.
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the fact that police and workers have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for more than a century is indeed a powerful argument for their non-alignment. the fact that arabs and israelis have been kicking the crap out of each other for more than 65 years is indeed a powerful argument for their non-alignment. i'm not sure your powerful argument works.
 
phildwyer said:
Anyway, I don't have time to do the Socratic thing today, so I'll just finish a thought here.

If you really want to argue for a massive difference between extreme "left" and extreme "right," the most promising basis on which to do so is not theoretical but empirical. The fact that "Leftists" and "Rightists" have been kicking the crap out of each other on the streets for almost a century is indeed a powerful argument for their nonalignment.

Powerful but ultimately unpersuasive. Young men will fight about anything.
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yes because all young men a) fight b) fight about anything. sadly not the case. and another fail: it's not like all fascists or all communists or all anarchists are young men up for a scrap. you're full of fail.
 
SpineyNorman said:
It's not so much being anti-capitalist as what you'd want to replace it with that matters IMO.
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Yes, that is an important difference between us.

I take the view that no-one can know what will emerge out of a revolution, and that is is therefore futile to enter one with a blueprinted alternative system.
 
phildwyer said:
Yes, that is an important difference between us.

I take the view that no-one can know what will emerge out of a revolution, and that is is therefore futile to enter one with a blueprinted alternative system.
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no one except for you is saying anything about a blueprinted alternative system. it's simple enough even a lackwit like you ought to be able to comprehend it: if you're against capitalism, you can replace it with something better for people or something worse for people. some anti-capitalists will opt for the former, others for the latter. this doesn't mean a fully planned system exists in people's minds to replace capitalism. it does mean that people know the general gist of what they want.
 
Pickman's model said:
again, you're full of fail: many people who fight do so against people who aren't entirely up for a scrap - it's safer that way, to fight someone who isn't up for hitting back.
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Someone who isn't up for scrapping in other words, exactly as I said.

Anyway, the point is that many young men on both sides see scrapping as an end in itself, and do not greatly care for or against whom they scrap.
 
Edie, I know most aren't like that, it's because (mostly) of the crap that was forced down my throat as a kid at a christian school, I know for a fact most aren't like it though. I never wanted to offend you :(
 
Pickman's model said:
people know the general gist of what they want.
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Hahaha. Fool.

General Gist:

220px-StatesRightsGist.jpg
 
frogwoman said:
Edie, I know most aren't like that, it's because (mostly) of the crap that was forced down my throat as a kid at a christian school, I know for a fact most aren't like it though. I never wanted to offend you :(
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You've not offended me mate, I just wondered if you were even aware that a lot of your posts about Christianity sound scathing. You've good reason for all I know anyway.
 
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