Humberto
Godspede
Genuinely don't think you are trying to be clear.
Anelka's quenelle
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Genuinely don't think you are trying to be clear.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
No, it says so in the new testament. I am not quite sure where you're getting this stuff?
You know what neoplatonism is?
Christianity is a popularized version of neoplatonism, using "picture thinking" instead of logical argument.
In intellectual neoplatonism, for example, the "Son" is called the logos.
I'm not making it up, wish I were.
Christianity as "neoplatonism for the masses" = Nietzsche
Christianity as "picture thinking" = Hegel
Humberto
Godspede
Knowing 'stuff' does not an argument make.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yeah, we know. Well, enjoy your nazi gold. I hope it brings you much happiness. As it so evidently does as you plough relentlessly through the same shit night after night.
It's an undeniable improvement on not knowing stuff though.
Humberto
Godspede
You do however engage in academic showboating. Stop it. I'm not buying it.
MellySingsDoom
Decimated by the shrapnel of his rhetoric
Blimey, this thread has had a few diversions.
(Tried to post a Haaretz article, but it didn't work - sorry)
(Tried to post a Haaretz article, but it didn't work - sorry)
By that criteria there would be no slav neo nazi's either, confident to make that claim too?
The clearly not right wing Dieudonne Hanging out with Holocaust denier Robert Faurisson
why so squeamish? I thought you didn't believe in such outmoded concepts as left and right?
From policeman to Miss Jean Brodie. Well done you.
Struggling to believe you have the bare-faced cheek to post this when it describes yourself perfectly... on every thread.
Except you actually do the reading... then come on here and abuse people instead of using your undoubted intellect to engage and enlighten to debate, illuminate, educate, disseminate. "I'm enlightened, your just a cunt"?
Shrivelled. Wizened. Frightened little man.
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I would still like to know how the meaning of this gesture evolved. I
BA and others insist there is/can be only one meaning (and after this week's events we have certainly moved a step nearer to that universal interpretation) but even a cursory reading of the webz tells me that lots of french people regarded it and widely used it as an anti-establishment 'up-yours' gesture.
Tony Parker, Sami Nasri and the others all used it in this way (or would BA allege they are anti-semites too?). Anelka obviously has far less excuse/wriggle-room on account of his personal friendship with yer man. But the fact remains that Dieudonne presented it originally as an 'anti-establishment' gesture. Has the gesture evolved as he has? Has it taken on a life of it's own.
I also saw the Spurs full-back (apparently) taking the piss out of Anelka by congratulating him on his perfect quenelle and suggesting he come do it at Spurs as it would go down so well there. Unfortunately I dont know french, much less twitter-speak french slang so I cannot fathom quite whether he was calling Anelka a silly boy (a la Paul Gascoigne) or something more sinister. Whether it was a case of 'you daft cunt' or 'you malignant cunt'. And yes... who, how and in what circumstance it is used does fundamentally alter the meaning of most gestures.
I ask these things, not for pedantry, but because a cultural phenomenon that is apparently deeply anti-semetic (as all the photos show how it has been used by the Right) is also apparently seen as 'sticking it to the man' in some quarters, especially those 'down wit the yoot' en france. I can't really think of an equivalent phenomenon in britain. This is deeply disturbing and worthy of discussion.
BA and others insist there is/can be only one meaning (and after this week's events we have certainly moved a step nearer to that universal interpretation) but even a cursory reading of the webz tells me that lots of french people regarded it and widely used it as an anti-establishment 'up-yours' gesture.
Tony Parker, Sami Nasri and the others all used it in this way (or would BA allege they are anti-semites too?). Anelka obviously has far less excuse/wriggle-room on account of his personal friendship with yer man. But the fact remains that Dieudonne presented it originally as an 'anti-establishment' gesture. Has the gesture evolved as he has? Has it taken on a life of it's own.
I also saw the Spurs full-back (apparently) taking the piss out of Anelka by congratulating him on his perfect quenelle and suggesting he come do it at Spurs as it would go down so well there. Unfortunately I dont know french, much less twitter-speak french slang so I cannot fathom quite whether he was calling Anelka a silly boy (a la Paul Gascoigne) or something more sinister. Whether it was a case of 'you daft cunt' or 'you malignant cunt'. And yes... who, how and in what circumstance it is used does fundamentally alter the meaning of most gestures.
I ask these things, not for pedantry, but because a cultural phenomenon that is apparently deeply anti-semetic (as all the photos show how it has been used by the Right) is also apparently seen as 'sticking it to the man' in some quarters, especially those 'down wit the yoot' en france. I can't really think of an equivalent phenomenon in britain. This is deeply disturbing and worthy of discussion.
its a bit of both, when Dieudonne first used it was in a skit about dolphins having it "up to here" with humans, the up to here bit being how high they supposedly raise their flippers.
It does or rather did have currency outside neo nazi circles Tony parker apologised recently because an old photo of him making the gesture alongside Dieudonne surfaced in the wake of the Anelka controversy , at the time he made the salute he was unaware it had begun to be appropriated by neo nazis.He appologised for any offence caused and stated unreservedly that he would never make the gesture again.Sakho also made a similar appology.
I dont think it's coincidental that the gesture has been subsequently adopted by neo nazis and holocaust deniers though given how both he andhis close confident Sorrel has used it in an explicitly anti-semitic manner (sorrel on more than one occasion )and the controversy surrounding Dieudonnes films, awards ceremonies and the entire "Shoahannas" debacle
It does or rather did have currency outside neo nazi circles Tony parker apologised recently because an old photo of him making the gesture alongside Dieudonne surfaced in the wake of the Anelka controversy , at the time he made the salute he was unaware it had begun to be appropriated by neo nazis.He appologised for any offence caused and stated unreservedly that he would never make the gesture again.Sakho also made a similar appology.
I dont think it's coincidental that the gesture has been subsequently adopted by neo nazis and holocaust deniers though given how both he andhis close confident Sorrel has used it in an explicitly anti-semitic manner (sorrel on more than one occasion )and the controversy surrounding Dieudonnes films, awards ceremonies and the entire "Shoahannas" debacle
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As for Anelka, i guess he could be politically illiterate and solipsistic enough to believe the gesture could still be seen purely as anti-establishment,his history of contract rumbles with the FA convince him in his mind that the only interpretation possible is he to be sticking it to The Man.His personal friendship with Dieudonne, and his comments about using it as a gesture of support for him obviously muddy the waters somewhat.
Support for what though? has Dieudonne had a particularly tough year? The impression i got was that here was a guy whose star had waned somewhat,any currency the gesture had as "hip" would be in todays climate be deciedly as trendy as your dad going "Booyaksha" or "Wuuusssup", Anelka himself approaching middle age coincidence?
fuck this post is a facking mess
Support for what though? has Dieudonne had a particularly tough year? The impression i got was that here was a guy whose star had waned somewhat,any currency the gesture had as "hip" would be in todays climate be deciedly as trendy as your dad going "Booyaksha" or "Wuuusssup", Anelka himself approaching middle age coincidence?
fuck this post is a facking mess
revol68
what, fucking what?
What are you struggling to get?
At the risk of provoking Godwin's law, you do realise lots of people who got involved in Nazism at various levels (even just reproducing it's gestures, language etc) weren't out and out rabid anti semites and considered it an anti establishment movement...
The fact that some idiots doing this gesture aren't particularly anti semitic or blind to that element is hardly surprising, it goes for most political gestures or symbols across the whole ideological spectrum. Your pseudo confusion with this one is especially naive though as it comes from a guy (and a wider political milieu) that deliberately seeks to muddy the waters, to flit between explicit anti semitism and more coded "anti zionism". This is basic stuff, it's how most forms of racism and bigotry articulate themselves.
I certainly don't believe in ascribing politics to people on the basis of photographs.
I seem to recall that being done to Arthur Scargill, among others.
And there's something distasteful about the impulse to identify a person, as opposed to an idea, as a Nazi/Fascist. In certain hands it can seem sadistic, even pornographic, and not a billion miles from what the (allegedly) other lot do.
I think it's stupid to call Dieudonne a "right-winger" of any description. The term is obviously inadequate. Call him what he is.
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No it isn't.
Most forms of racism and bigotry--and all the forms we need to worry about--are perfectly open and unabashed.
Too many people waste too much time in futile inverted McCarthyism.
revol68
what, fucking what?
so now the fash aren't right wing either cos y'know they had elements of left wing politics and criticisms of bourgeois democracy...
you're right about a trend to move from someone being to someone is in regards to racism or whatever though.
revol68
what, fucking what?
ugh no they aren't, they tend to be encoded, infact the forms we really have to worry about are especially well coded.
Check out how rabid sectarianism is moved into "dual narratives" and cultural point scoring in NI.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
They're really not. In the area of employment (for example) direct discrimination is much rarer than indirect.
You said it, not me.
The C20th Fascists can legitimately be called "right-wing" because that was the universally accepted metaphor for conceiving politics, and it was possible to have such a universal metaphor because everyone understood that class was the prime determinant of politics--they understood it, even if they didn't like it. Neither is true today.
The thing to do today is to isolate the truly objectionable ideas, pre-eminent among which are racism and anti-semitism.
Yes. As a thought experiment, imagine what would happen to the author of On The Jewish Question if it was published today.
You've got a really big chip on your shoulder about Christians.
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I meant in terms of organized politics. Obviously individuals often try to conceal their bigotry.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
It applies to organised politics too. The BNP (for example) have striven for years to distance themselves from accusations of racism.