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Anarchism - Petty Utopianism

Yugoslav

Jugoslaven
Some are looking for attempts to reunite the two. It may be good choice but I don't think myself that it would be going well. It's just that anarchism is incredibly idealist, utopian, and unrealistic with its objective of abolishing the state. 21st century, the bourgeois class dominates most of the world, Western values threaten to colonize other cultures. Yet, the position of a hypothetical anarchist commune would realistically prove itself incredibly vulnerable and weak to the bourgeois influence. And why?
  1. Instant state abolition is not needed. Without proper guidance of the revolution, a society on its own cannot sustain itself for we no longer live like that and we are faced with a threat of an existing bourgeois outside force that will crush on easily if there is chaos and collapse. The anarchists may call us MLs as "gradualist" in terms of state abolition but we certainly do mean it seriously. Revolutionary Catalonia failed because anarchists tried to fight against both Republicans and Fascists, thoroughly disorganizing the anti-fascist fight and giving an easy win for the Nationalists of Franco in Spain in 1939. Makhnovites failed because Makhno was voluntary conscriptionist and ran his own area like a crime lord instead of a revolutionary (bandit economy). He had to copy the Bolshevik authoritarianism in order to maintain stability.
  1. Complete decentralization is not a good idea either. It's just basically a feudalized society but "anarchist". Each worker, not doing their good for a society but instead do it for their local commune. If this is what is realistically possible, then anarchism already fails at that objective as well. A small region run by anarchists is most certainly vulnerable to the bourgeois invaders. To overthrow capitalism is not just seceding one part, but taking over a whole capitalist nation and establish socialism and purge bourgeois scum inside.


  1. The democratic approach of the anarchist decision-making is kinda confusing. According to "LibCom",
"proposals are talked about by members (none of whom have authority over another), dissenting minorities are respected, and each individual's participation is voluntary. Everyone has the right to agree or disagree over policy and actions, and everyone's ideas are given equal weight and consideration."It only brings the question of how do the anarchists deal with bourgeois opposition? It's not gonna be like that they have to listen to bourgeois dissent cause the anarchists claim to be against the bourgeois class as well like Marxists. The difference in decision-making is (refer to number two) that anarchists want voluntary free associations that they claim are somehow united by the "common need". What if there are those who do not belong in the "common need"? How does anarchism deal with the issue of free associations of producers who do not follow the common line?

Overall, I see no socialism in "anarchism". Proudhonites and Bakuninists can cry about it, I suppose.
 
If I chatgpt your posts, your points are much clearer.

Some people think anarchism and socialism could work together, but I don't think it would. Anarchism is too idealistic and unrealistic because it wants to get rid of the government completely. Today, the rich and powerful control most of the world, and Western values are spreading everywhere. An anarchist society would be weak and easy to take over by the rich.

Why is that? Getting rid of the government right away isn't the answer. A society can't survive on its own without a strong plan, and outside forces could easily destroy it if there's chaos. Some anarchists say we should get rid of the state gradually, but we believe in taking it step by step for a reason. Past revolutionary movements, like in Catalonia, failed because anarchists tried to fight too many enemies at once, weakening their own cause and allowing fascists to win. The Makhnovists also failed because their leader, Makhno, used force and ran his area like a crime boss. He had to use authoritarian methods to keep things in order.

Having small, independent communities run by anarchists isn't a good idea either. It would just be like a feudal society, where people only care about their own community, not society as a whole. If anarchism can only achieve this, it doesn't succeed in its goal. A small anarchist region would be too weak to stand up to the rich. To beat capitalism, we need to take over the whole country and build socialism.

The way anarchists make decisions is also confusing. They believe in no one having authority over anyone else, and everyone should have a say. But how do they deal with opposition from the rich? They say they are against the wealthy class, so why would they listen to them? Anarchists want groups of people with shared needs, but what happens if someone doesn't agree? How do they deal with people who don’t follow the same ideas?

In the end, I don't think anarchism leads to real socialism. Some anarchists may disagree, but that's how I see it.
 
If I chatgpt your posts, your points are much clearer.

Some people think anarchism and socialism could work together, but I don't think it would. Anarchism is too idealistic and unrealistic because it wants to get rid of the government completely. Today, the rich and powerful control most of the world, and Western values are spreading everywhere. An anarchist society would be weak and easy to take over by the rich.

Why is that? Getting rid of the government right away isn't the answer. A society can't survive on its own without a strong plan, and outside forces could easily destroy it if there's chaos. Some anarchists say we should get rid of the state gradually, but we believe in taking it step by step for a reason. Past revolutionary movements, like in Catalonia, failed because anarchists tried to fight too many enemies at once, weakening their own cause and allowing fascists to win. The Makhnovists also failed because their leader, Makhno, used force and ran his area like a crime boss. He had to use authoritarian methods to keep things in order.

Having small, independent communities run by anarchists isn't a good idea either. It would just be like a feudal society, where people only care about their own community, not society as a whole. If anarchism can only achieve this, it doesn't succeed in its goal. A small anarchist region would be too weak to stand up to the rich. To beat capitalism, we need to take over the whole country and build socialism.

The way anarchists make decisions is also confusing. They believe in no one having authority over anyone else, and everyone should have a say. But how do they deal with opposition from the rich? They say they are against the wealthy class, so why would they listen to them? Anarchists want groups of people with shared needs, but what happens if someone doesn't agree? How do they deal with people who don’t follow the same ideas?

In the end, I don't think anarchism leads to real socialism. Some anarchists may disagree, but that's how I see it.
Bro used AI summarizer to understand me.
 
Some are looking for attempts to reunite the two. It may be good choice but I don't think myself that it would be going well. It's just that anarchism is incredibly idealist, utopian, and unrealistic with its objective of abolishing the state. 21st century, the bourgeois class dominates most of the world, Western values threaten to colonize other cultures. Yet, the position of a hypothetical anarchist commune would realistically prove itself incredibly vulnerable and weak to the bourgeois influence. And why?
  1. Instant state abolition is not needed. Without proper guidance of the revolution, a society on its own cannot sustain itself for we no longer live like that and we are faced with a threat of an existing bourgeois outside force that will crush on easily if there is chaos and collapse. The anarchists may call us MLs as "gradualist" in terms of state abolition but we certainly do mean it seriously. Revolutionary Catalonia failed because anarchists tried to fight against both Republicans and Fascists, thoroughly disorganizing the anti-fascist fight and giving an easy win for the Nationalists of Franco in Spain in 1939. Makhnovites failed because Makhno was voluntary conscriptionist and ran his own area like a crime lord instead of a revolutionary (bandit economy). He had to copy the Bolshevik authoritarianism in order to maintain stability.
  2. Complete decentralization is not a good idea either. It's just basically a feudalized society but "anarchist". Each worker, not doing their good for a society but instead do it for their local commune. If this is what is realistically possible, then anarchism already fails at that objective as well. A small region run by anarchists is most certainly vulnerable to the bourgeois invaders. To overthrow capitalism is not just seceding one part, but taking over a whole capitalist nation and establish socialism and purge bourgeois scum inside.


  1. The democratic approach of the anarchist decision-making is kinda confusing. According to "LibCom",
"proposals are talked about by members (none of whom have authority over another), dissenting minorities are respected, and each individual's participation is voluntary. Everyone has the right to agree or disagree over policy and actions, and everyone's ideas are given equal weight and consideration."It only brings the question of how do the anarchists deal with bourgeois opposition? It's not gonna be like that they have to listen to bourgeois dissent cause the anarchists claim to be against the bourgeois class as well like Marxists. The difference in decision-making is (refer to number two) that anarchists want voluntary free associations that they claim are somehow united by the "common need". What if there are those who do not belong in the "common need"? How does anarchism deal with the issue of free associations of producers who do not follow the common line?

Overall, I see no socialism in "anarchism". Proudhonites and Bakuninists can cry about it, I suppose.
it's rare to see someone so intent on humiliating themselves as you are.
 
Bro used AI summarizer to understand me.
I think you probably AI'd a bit yourself you old fraud.

I asked for "three arguments against anarchism" and received this:

1. Vulnerability to Outside Threats


Anarchism's rejection of a central government leaves societies exposed to external threats. In the absence of a strong, organized military or defense system, anarchist communities are at risk of being taken over by more powerful forces. Historically, powerful capitalist nations, imperialist countries, or military groups have easily conquered regions that lacked centralized governance or defense.


For example, during the Spanish Civil War, anarchist militias in Catalonia and other regions fought against both fascists and Republicans, but the lack of centralized coordination made them vulnerable. The anarchists failed to create a united front against Franco’s Nationalist forces, who were better organized and had the support of foreign powers like Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The Makhnovist movement in Ukraine, led by Nestor Makhno, faced similar challenges. Despite initial success, the Makhnovists were eventually crushed because they lacked a unified command and the resources needed to fend off both the Bolshevik Red Army and foreign invaders. Anarchist societies would struggle to defend themselves from stronger capitalist countries and military forces that dominate the global stage.


The idea that local, self-governed communes could stand alone against modern states and multinational corporations is unrealistic. Without the power of a central authority or military structure to protect them, anarchist communities would be at the mercy of larger, more organized powers, leading to potential domination or destruction.


2. Difficulty Maintaining Order and Unity


Another major flaw of anarchism is its challenge in maintaining social order and unity. Anarchism envisions a society without any centralized authority, where decision-making is collective and voluntary. While this may sound appealing in theory, it’s difficult to maintain long-term stability without a clear structure or enforcement of rules.


Historically, anarchist societies have struggled with internal disorder and external conflict. During the Spanish Civil War, for example, the anarchists in Catalonia tried to fight against both the fascist Nationalists and the Republican government. This divided their efforts and led to a breakdown in coordination, which weakened the anti-fascist fight. By not focusing on a single, unified enemy, they allowed Franco’s forces to gain the upper hand. The anarchists also faced internal divisions between those who wanted a more decentralized, pure anarchist society and others who were willing to work with socialist groups for the sake of unity.


In the case of the Makhnovists in Ukraine, Makhno initially led a successful rebellion against the Tsarists and the Red Army. However, his failure to build a sustainable, organized government led to infighting and a lack of resources. Moreover, Makhno's policies, such as voluntary conscription and his reliance on informal, irregular troops, often led to chaos rather than a functioning revolutionary state. In the absence of centralized control, anarchist movements can devolve into disorganization, making it difficult to deal with both internal and external challenges. Without a way to resolve disagreements, enforce laws, or coordinate collective efforts, anarchist societies are at risk of falling into chaos.


3. Inability to Overcome Capitalism


Anarchism’s focus on decentralizing power and abolishing the state does not directly tackle the fundamental problem of capitalism—the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few. Anarchism may successfully get rid of formal governments, but it doesn’t offer a clear method for dismantling capitalist economic structures. Without addressing the way resources, wealth, and production are controlled by private individuals or corporations, anarchism struggles to overcome capitalism.


To truly challenge capitalism, a more comprehensive approach is needed, one that doesn’t just focus on local communities or small-scale decentralization but on transforming the entire economic system. Marxist socialism, for example, advocates for a revolution that takes over the entire nation and establishes collective ownership of the means of production, ensuring that wealth is distributed more equally. Anarchism, on the other hand, often focuses on creating autonomous zones or small communes, which may not be enough to challenge the global power of large corporations or wealthy elites.


If anarchist societies only focus on small, decentralized communes or local self-governance, they remain vulnerable to exploitation by larger capitalist forces. These small groups can’t independently control or challenge the global capitalist economy, and they would be at risk of being undermined by capitalist interests outside their borders. Essentially, anarchism doesn’t offer a practical solution to the broader problem of capitalism, which requires a more coordinated, large-scale effort to dismantle the economic systems that maintain inequality.




In summary, anarchism struggles with real-world issues of defense, order, and economic transformation. Without centralized defense, anarchist societies are vulnerable to external threats from stronger capitalist forces. Their lack of a clear system of organization makes it hard to maintain unity and stability, often leading to internal conflict and disarray. Finally, anarchism doesn’t address the larger issue of capitalism itself—leaving small, decentralized communities unable to challenge the economic forces that maintain inequality on a global scale.



 
I think you probably AI'd a bit yourself you old fraud.

I asked for "three arguments against anarchism" and received this:

1. Vulnerability to Outside Threats


Anarchism's rejection of a central government leaves societies exposed to external threats. In the absence of a strong, organized military or defense system, anarchist communities are at risk of being taken over by more powerful forces. Historically, powerful capitalist nations, imperialist countries, or military groups have easily conquered regions that lacked centralized governance or defense.


For example, during the Spanish Civil War, anarchist militias in Catalonia and other regions fought against both fascists and Republicans, but the lack of centralized coordination made them vulnerable. The anarchists failed to create a united front against Franco’s Nationalist forces, who were better organized and had the support of foreign powers like Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy. The Makhnovist movement in Ukraine, led by Nestor Makhno, faced similar challenges. Despite initial success, the Makhnovists were eventually crushed because they lacked a unified command and the resources needed to fend off both the Bolshevik Red Army and foreign invaders. Anarchist societies would struggle to defend themselves from stronger capitalist countries and military forces that dominate the global stage.


The idea that local, self-governed communes could stand alone against modern states and multinational corporations is unrealistic. Without the power of a central authority or military structure to protect them, anarchist communities would be at the mercy of larger, more organized powers, leading to potential domination or destruction.



2. Difficulty Maintaining Order and Unity


Another major flaw of anarchism is its challenge in maintaining social order and unity. Anarchism envisions a society without any centralized authority, where decision-making is collective and voluntary. While this may sound appealing in theory, it’s difficult to maintain long-term stability without a clear structure or enforcement of rules.


Historically, anarchist societies have struggled with internal disorder and external conflict. During the Spanish Civil War, for example, the anarchists in Catalonia tried to fight against both the fascist Nationalists and the Republican government. This divided their efforts and led to a breakdown in coordination, which weakened the anti-fascist fight. By not focusing on a single, unified enemy, they allowed Franco’s forces to gain the upper hand. The anarchists also faced internal divisions between those who wanted a more decentralized, pure anarchist society and others who were willing to work with socialist groups for the sake of unity.


In the case of the Makhnovists in Ukraine, Makhno initially led a successful rebellion against the Tsarists and the Red Army. However, his failure to build a sustainable, organized government led to infighting and a lack of resources. Moreover, Makhno's policies, such as voluntary conscription and his reliance on informal, irregular troops, often led to chaos rather than a functioning revolutionary state. In the absence of centralized control, anarchist movements can devolve into disorganization, making it difficult to deal with both internal and external challenges. Without a way to resolve disagreements, enforce laws, or coordinate collective efforts, anarchist societies are at risk of falling into chaos.



3. Inability to Overcome Capitalism


Anarchism’s focus on decentralizing power and abolishing the state does not directly tackle the fundamental problem of capitalism—the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of a few. Anarchism may successfully get rid of formal governments, but it doesn’t offer a clear method for dismantling capitalist economic structures. Without addressing the way resources, wealth, and production are controlled by private individuals or corporations, anarchism struggles to overcome capitalism.


To truly challenge capitalism, a more comprehensive approach is needed, one that doesn’t just focus on local communities or small-scale decentralization but on transforming the entire economic system. Marxist socialism, for example, advocates for a revolution that takes over the entire nation and establishes collective ownership of the means of production, ensuring that wealth is distributed more equally. Anarchism, on the other hand, often focuses on creating autonomous zones or small communes, which may not be enough to challenge the global power of large corporations or wealthy elites.


If anarchist societies only focus on small, decentralized communes or local self-governance, they remain vulnerable to exploitation by larger capitalist forces. These small groups can’t independently control or challenge the global capitalist economy, and they would be at risk of being undermined by capitalist interests outside their borders. Essentially, anarchism doesn’t offer a practical solution to the broader problem of capitalism, which requires a more coordinated, large-scale effort to dismantle the economic systems that maintain inequality.





In summary, anarchism struggles with real-world issues of defense, order, and economic transformation. Without centralized defense, anarchist societies are vulnerable to external threats from stronger capitalist forces. Their lack of a clear system of organization makes it hard to maintain unity and stability, often leading to internal conflict and disarray. Finally, anarchism doesn’t address the larger issue of capitalism itself—leaving small, decentralized communities unable to challenge the economic forces that maintain inequality on a global scale.
It is very similar to what I consider.
 
Some are looking for attempts to reunite the two. It may be good choice but I don't think myself that it would be going well. It's just that anarchism is incredibly idealist, utopian, and unrealistic with its objective of abolishing the state. 21st century, the bourgeois class dominates most of the world, Western values threaten to colonize other cultures. Yet, the position of a hypothetical anarchist commune would realistically prove itself incredibly vulnerable and weak to the bourgeois influence. And why?
  1. Instant state abolition is not needed. Without proper guidance of the revolution, a society on its own cannot sustain itself for we no longer live like that and we are faced with a threat of an existing bourgeois outside force that will crush on easily if there is chaos and collapse. The anarchists may call us MLs as "gradualist" in terms of state abolition but we certainly do mean it seriously. Revolutionary Catalonia failed because anarchists tried to fight against both Republicans and Fascists, thoroughly disorganizing the anti-fascist fight and giving an easy win for the Nationalists of Franco in Spain in 1939. Makhnovites failed because Makhno was voluntary conscriptionist and ran his own area like a crime lord instead of a revolutionary (bandit economy). He had to copy the Bolshevik authoritarianism in order to maintain stability.
  2. Complete decentralization is not a good idea either. It's just basically a feudalized society but "anarchist". Each worker, not doing their good for a society but instead do it for their local commune. If this is what is realistically possible, then anarchism already fails at that objective as well. A small region run by anarchists is most certainly vulnerable to the bourgeois invaders. To overthrow capitalism is not just seceding one part, but taking over a whole capitalist nation and establish socialism and purge bourgeois scum inside.


  1. The democratic approach of the anarchist decision-making is kinda confusing. According to "LibCom",
"proposals are talked about by members (none of whom have authority over another), dissenting minorities are respected, and each individual's participation is voluntary. Everyone has the right to agree or disagree over policy and actions, and everyone's ideas are given equal weight and consideration."It only brings the question of how do the anarchists deal with bourgeois opposition? It's not gonna be like that they have to listen to bourgeois dissent cause the anarchists claim to be against the bourgeois class as well like Marxists. The difference in decision-making is (refer to number two) that anarchists want voluntary free associations that they claim are somehow united by the "common need". What if there are those who do not belong in the "common need"? How does anarchism deal with the issue of free associations of producers who do not follow the common line?

Overall, I see no socialism in "anarchism". Proudhonites and Bakuninists can cry about it, I suppose.

yeah, yeah but i'll ask again: Do you even lift, bro?
 
Some are looking for attempts to reunite the two. It may be good choice but I don't think myself that it would be going well. It's just that anarchism is incredibly idealist, utopian, and unrealistic with its objective of abolishing the state. 21st century, the bourgeois class dominates most of the world, Western values threaten to colonize other cultures. Yet, the position of a hypothetical anarchist commune would realistically prove itself incredibly vulnerable and weak to the bourgeois influence. And why?
  1. Instant state abolition is not needed. Without proper guidance of the revolution, a society on its own cannot sustain itself for we no longer live like that and we are faced with a threat of an existing bourgeois outside force that will crush on easily if there is chaos and collapse. The anarchists may call us MLs as "gradualist" in terms of state abolition but we certainly do mean it seriously. Revolutionary Catalonia failed because anarchists tried to fight against both Republicans and Fascists, thoroughly disorganizing the anti-fascist fight and giving an easy win for the Nationalists of Franco in Spain in 1939. Makhnovites failed because Makhno was voluntary conscriptionist and ran his own area like a crime lord instead of a revolutionary (bandit economy). He had to copy the Bolshevik authoritarianism in order to maintain stability.
  1. Complete decentralization is not a good idea either. It's just basically a feudalized society but "anarchist". Each worker, not doing their good for a society but instead do it for their local commune. If this is what is realistically possible, then anarchism already fails at that objective as well. A small region run by anarchists is most certainly vulnerable to the bourgeois invaders. To overthrow capitalism is not just seceding one part, but taking over a whole capitalist nation and establish socialism and purge bourgeois scum inside.


  1. The democratic approach of the anarchist decision-making is kinda confusing. According to "LibCom",
"proposals are talked about by members (none of whom have authority over another), dissenting minorities are respected, and each individual's participation is voluntary. Everyone has the right to agree or disagree over policy and actions, and everyone's ideas are given equal weight and consideration."It only brings the question of how do the anarchists deal with bourgeois opposition? It's not gonna be like that they have to listen to bourgeois dissent cause the anarchists claim to be against the bourgeois class as well like Marxists. The difference in decision-making is (refer to number two) that anarchists want voluntary free associations that they claim are somehow united by the "common need". What if there are those who do not belong in the "common need"? How does anarchism deal with the issue of free associations of producers who do not follow the common line?

Overall, I see no socialism in "anarchism". Proudhonites and Bakuninists can cry about it, I suppose.

The main reason the anarchists struggled in Spain was that stalinists like you shot them in the back.
 
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