Anarchism Decision Making

[Biscuitician]

Political dissatisfaction has led me toward Anachism in recent months. Consequently I am no expert in the theory. One issue that keeps raising its head for me regards decision making. Specifically: if the people are going to represent themselves and make decisions communally, won't that take up an awful lot of time? Or is that a notion derived from the representative system we have now, where the ruling class reinforces that notion that us plebs should relinquish our capability to our betters if only for convenience?

Won't there be decisions that need making all the time?

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes

 

[Biscuitician]

So how does that get resolved, practically speaking? That's what I'm struggling with.

 

[Pickman's model]

So how does that get resolved, practically speaking? That's what I'm struggling with.

It depends on the decision and the group. Sometimes people vote, sometimes there's consensus, sometimes people in a consensus decision making process block stuff, sometimes the decision's referred to a smaller group - it's anarchism, there are no hard and fast rules.

 

[Biscuitician]

Ok, I'm really speaking about the sheer logistics involved, not the mechanism of resolution. So if decisions need to be made and all members can vote, then how do we enable that? Essentially: how will people have time to do anything else if they have to attend meetings (assuming they choose to) to vote all the time?

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok, I'm really speaking about the sheer logistics involved, not the mechanism of resolution. So if decisions need to be made and all members can vote, then how do we enable that? Essentially: how will people have time to do anything else if they have to attend meetings (assuming they choose to) to vote all the time?

People don't need to vote on everything, it's not like everyone would come together to decide every single question

 

[Biscuitician]

People don't need to vote on everything, it's not like everyone would come together to decide every single question

But you'd agree that the system has to allow for that, even if individual members of the community choose not to participate in a given decision?

 

[Pickman's model]

But you'd agree that the system has to allow for that, even if individual members of the community choose not to participate in a given decision?

i don't see why, that would be stupid: 'dinner is jacket potatoes. do the beans go on first, or the cheese?'

are you drawn to anarchism because you want to be involved in really small decisions currently made at an individual level?

 

[Biscuitician]

i don't see why, that would be stupid: 'dinner is jacket potatoes. do the beans go on first, or the cheese?'

are you drawn to anarchism because you want to be involved in really small decisions?

Well no, obviously what's on the menu at the Patterson household isn't going to be put to the community for deciding.

I'm drawn to anarchism because I want to have power over my own life, free from oppression or obligation.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well no, obviously what's on the menu at the Patterson household isn't going to be put to the community for deciding.

I'm drawn to anarchism because I want to have power over my own life, free from oppression or obligation.

yes. but the anarchist assembly isn't going to sit in permanent session issuing decisions on all manner of minutiae.

 

[Biscuitician]

yes. but the anarchist assembly isn't going to sit in permanent session issuing decisions on all manner of minutiae.

That's begging the question as to what is considered minutiae

 

[Pickman's model]

That's begging the question as to what is considered minutiae

Let me google that for you

 

[danny la rouge]

Well no, obviously what's on the menu at the Patterson household isn't going to be put to the community for deciding.

I'm drawn to anarchism because I want to have power over my own life, free from oppression or obligation.

Think of a thing that needs to be decided in a worker run factory. "What is the best way to make these widgets", for example. Once that decision is made, the widgets can be manufactured in that manner without the decision needing to be made every day. If eventually people say "Oh, this isn't actually working, can we try it this way instead?" then the practise can be modified. But if people are happy with the process it can continue. That's the sort of thing.

The vast majority of decisions that parliament makes don't actually need to be made. The continual fucking around with education, for example. Ask teachers and students what works, then let them get on with it. Don't keep restructuring the whole system every 6 years, with all the getting used to it, fine-tuning and re-organising that takes up half of that time.



In the 1980s TV series the Beiderbecke Affair, Mrs Swinburne goes to the council offices to meet a bureaucrat in the planning department. She can't find his room, which keeps moving. He explains "We are currently un-reorganised. The department is being reorganised, but we are as yet un-reorganised".

 

[pocketscience]

That's begging the question as to what is considered minutiae

It's more practical for community members to be free to make their own conscientious decisions for the group- rather than always trying to reach consensus proactively... and if anything that's done is a real no-no, address it retrospectively in a rational manner
Other than that, planning can be done in groups, preferably after lunch

 

[Biscuitician]

As long as we agree on what is for lunch

Thanks for the clarification. Disabusing myself of capitalist conditioning isn't easy.

 

[pocketscience]

Beans on toast, then take it from there

 

[Fez909]

Think of a thing that needs to be decided in a worker run factory. "What is the best way to make these widgets", for example. Once that decision is made, the widgets can be manufactured in that manner without the decision needing to be made every day. If eventually people say "Oh, this isn't actually working, can we try it this way instead?" then the practise can be modified. But if people are happy with the process it can continue. That's the sort of thing.

The vast majority of decisions that parliament makes don't actually need to be made. The continual fucking around with education, for example. Ask teachers and students what works, then let them get on with it. Don't keep restructuring the whole system every 6 years, with all the getting used to it, fine-tuning and re-organising that takes up half of that time.



In the 1980s TV series the Beiderbecke Affair, Mrs Swinburne goes to the council offices to meet a bureaucrat in the planning department. She can't find his room, which keeps moving. He explains "We are currently un-reorganised. The department is being reorganised, but we are as yet un-reorganised".

Recently became aware of a 'new' style of management being touted in some Ted talks and whatnot. It consists of no managers and the workers deciding how things should be done because they know what's best. Sounds a little bit anarchism...



If it can be done by this tomato factory, then it can be done anywhere. And this is done currently for the gain of the bosses. Imagine how much more motivating it would be to know you're doing this for yourself.

 

[Biscuitician]

I've been reading Anarchy Works by Peter Gelderloss who mentions examples of such things happening in turn of the millenium Argentina.

 

[bi0boy]

People sit in a circle in an independent hippy cafe and only the person with the talking stick is allowed to speak, everyone else must shut up, the more dominant people get to talk more because they are more likely to given the stick, this goes on for about three hours and the "consensus" is recorded under direction from the loudest person with backup from their friends and everyone who disagrees doesn't bother objecting because they want to go home.

 

[pocketscience]

 

[Biscuitician]

Just how big is anarchism (i realise there are different strains, I'm interested in anarchocommunism) in the Uk, as far as can be ascertained?

 

[Biscuitician]

People sit in a circle in an independent hippy cafe and only the person with the talking stick is allowed to speak, everyone else must shut up, the more dominant people get to talk more because they are more likely to given the stick, this goes on for about three hours and the "consensus" is recorded under direction from the loudest person with backup from their friends and everyone who disagrees doesn't bother objecting because they want to go home.

I feel your negative vibrations need to be removed and that you should take a moment to realign your goals within the karma yurt.

 

[danny la rouge]

Just how big is anarchism (i realise there are different strains, I'm interested in anarchocommunism) in the Uk, as far as can be ascertained?

Current size tiny, but we'll win in the end.

 

[Biscuitician]

Current size tiny, but we'll win in the end.

we better, we can't afford not to.

 

[The39thStep]

It's more practical for community members to be free to make their own conscientious decisions for the group- rather than always trying to reach consensus proactively... and if anything that's done is a real no-no, address it retrospectively in a rational manner
Other than that, planning can be done in groups, preferably after lunch

What does this mean in practise though ? What's the difference between these community members and the group? can you give an example?

 

[pocketscience]

What does this mean in practise though ? What's the difference between these community members and the group? can you give an example?

I meant a community member being anyone involved in the community.
By groups, for example, I meant those which could evolve down different lines of special interests or competence areas like technology, agriculture, education etc

 

[Brainaddict]

Another question is at what scale can you organise. A lot of anarchists in the UK at the moment seem to me to have quite an individualistic strain that means they don't really believe in large scale organising, economic or otherwise (because participants in large orgs are forced to compromise on issues, and the dangers of leadership become trickier to deal with I think, and participants can rarely just act on their own behalf). As someone who thinks large scale organising is desirable and necessary, I have always been interested in traditions like that of the CNT in Spain. Essentially you can do larger scale organising only with delegates (distinct from representatives - they have to do what they're told by those below them, and you should be able to get rid of a delegate at any time). In the UK the democratic organising tradition most strongly exists in co-ops these days, but sadly the big famous Co-operative Group is not much of an example to go on. Other countries like Argentina and even Spain and Italy have more interesting co-op organising.

 

[The39thStep]

I meant a community member being anyone involved in the community.
By groups, for example, I meant those which could evolve down different lines of special interests or competence areas like technology, agriculture, education etc

is this work based or community based, what about those who don't want to work?

 

[pocketscience]

is this work based or community based, what about those who don't want to work?

from my experience a bit of both but def more community based. I've stayed at dozens of large squats across Europe and been directly involved in squatted traveller sites, travelling circus's and an ecological center which i guess you could say all worked on an anarchist/TAZ model.
Most people involved were/are high on community spirit and low on work ethic
but when (community) work needs to be done, if you don't muck in, you generally don't get dibs on any of the benefits.
One big advantage of the traveling community - it's really easy to dispense of wankers in transit.

 

[Cid]

Just how big is anarchism (i realise there are different strains, I'm interested in anarchocommunism) in the Uk, as far as can be ascertained?

I'd look into anarcho-syndicalism, anarchist ideas aren't mutually exclusive and syndicalism can be seen as an important step in establishing communism. Certainly the fact that unions are an existing system, and the examples of CNT etc make it one of the more credible revolutionary ideas.