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A reeking resolution.

According to the news tonight, representatives from Arab countries are going to NY to try to get a deal acceptable to Lebanon. I guess that's what the big rush is in trying to get it passed - before they arrive.

Did anyone else watch that programme 'What muslims want' on TV tonight? Tony Blair is making problems for himself [and us] here in the UK with his blind support of the US and Israel concerning the ME.
 
rachamim18 said:
Kaka: What a lovely thought. Lucky for me though, aside from a district court in Morocco, and pisant court in London, noone else will ever think so. Tell me though, does your heart bleed for the Israelis who have died from Hezbollah?
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Not the ones in uniform like you. Your a shining example of the racism, arrogance and utter contempt for humanity that typifies the poisonous legacy of the Zionist state.

You're no better than Milosovic's thugs or the fucking Afrikaans - and you spout exaclty the same justifications for your inhumanity that they did.
 
rachamim18 said:
In any event, the nature of Assymetrical Warfare dictates moderate to heavy collateral damage on the irregular side. I know it sounds cavalier but Hezbollah iniated the conflict while basing itself in residential areas.
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Sorry that wont wash with me. There was suffiecient evidence in the Quna massacre that there were NO Hezbollah fighters in the town-even so you need to read up on the rules of engagement during war.

Israel are breaking international humanitarian law that clearly states:


....international humanitarian law also makes it clear that even if one side is shielding itself behind civilians, such an abuse does not "...release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians."



Quite clearly Israel are taking little if no steps at all to stop the amount of civilian deaths.
 
rachamim18 said:
TAE: We do not consider "every Lebanese we eoncounter to be a valid target." To the contrary, if we had we would have erased Hezbollah in about a good week.
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Nonsense. Dont kid yourself. Overwhelming fire power was used in Vietnam and didnt win. Israel does NOT have the upper hand and according to the BBC the IDF have destroyed a fifth of the launching capabilities of Hezbollah-all that after 26 days of pounding the Lebanon.

Israel is losing this war and I for one want to see the IDF get the bloodiest nose in its history.
 
SleaterKinney: I read your BBC article but saw nothing at all about "targetting every Lebanese person ." If you meant, as you say in your next sentence that Israel has aimed for the Lebanese infrastructue...OF COURSE IT HAS! As I have said many times, that is a basic pre-requisite ofd any military action on medium to large scale. It is not directed to harm civlians but actually to helpo them. You see, if the infrstructure remained intact, civilians, despite warning to the contrary, would continue going about their day to day lives even as the jets flew overhead. It would lead to catostrophic civlian death tolls. Taking out the infrastructure keeps the civilian population hunkered down or out of the way [even better]. A more important objective is the effect on combatants but that is not the subject here.

"How man Lebanese will kill before I fell better." I do not relish the thought of taking another's life. to the contrary. I think that it is noble act to risk one's life in defense of one's homeland...and if taking an enemie's life is made necessary than I accept the responsibility but I have never enjoyed it or felt it gratifying.

TAE: "Explain justice Minister Chaim Ramon's comment: 'All those still left in south Lebanon are terrorists'." Well TAE, that is easy. Ramon meant to say, although I would have phrased it a bit differently, that all civilians from South Lebanon have had more than enough chances to evac out and anyone left could be construed as a valid target.

However, we on the ground fully understand that many poor cannot afford the 500 US taxi ride up to Tyre. We understand that many are sick, or old, or unwilling toi leave their ownly material possesions in the world. this is why we fight house to house and just do not call in the IAF or artillery to completely flatten the villages. Just yesterfday in Bint J'bail we lost men because of this concern for civilians, as we also did in D'bil.

"Sounds like war crimes." It would be if implemented but then that is why Ramon is a barrister and not a soldier.

"TAE's heart bleeds for inncoent Israelis killed by Hezbollah." I am sincerely glad for that.

KakaTim: Equating me with Serbian extremists and Afrikaners simply illustrates your ignorance. Israel is a liberal democracy. Our armed forces have a fair amount of Arabs, as well as other non-Jews [Bedua, Druse, Circassians].

GrandmaDeath: "There was evidece that there no Hezbollah in Qana ." Um, I hope you really start keeping up with the news. If you do you might then have heard that just 3 days ago such proof was found. Launchers. You might also want to know that the civilian count from that hit was lowered officially by 2/3rds [HRW, etc]. Please do not fall prey to propaganda.


Thanks for the tip on "Rules of Engagement" but there is no such thing. Each armed force offers its own guideline which may chnage with every armed conflict, and even battle. International Law and Convention does dictate some universal truths and these are in fact always observed by Israel.

In fact, the blurb you included was adressed by me yesterday in another thread excvept that you left off the bulk of it. Go back and read the part of exceeding military objectives.

"Overwhelming firepower did not win Nam." Right but there is a big difference between the two conflicts. For one, we are fighting against people are publicly committed to our extermination. The Viet Cong simply wanted foreigners to stop ruling them. then there is the case of morale. Allies faced blistering humiliation and pain back home from nations that spat at them. We have a 95% plus approval rating in our nation. then there was the distance factor. Americans for example were on the other side of the globe. R and R to them was a weekend in a Thai or Philippine bar. I am fighting less than a 100 miles from my home and am sitting in my sunroom right now, rested, and ready to go back up north. There are so many differences I do believe I could go on all night.


"Israel does not have the upper hand." The ONLY thing preventing Israel from completely erasing Hezbollah and everyone in it is the civilians they choose to hide behind. they have less than 4000 regulars. We have more 100 thousand last time I counted, plus 800 thousand more Reservists like myself. Numerical superiority does not mean a whole lot in assymetrical Warfarre but our superior training [ I for example have been trained since age 11 and went on Active at 16, am now 39]. Hezbollah was not even crreated until the early 80s and virtually none of their Regulars were involved with them at that time. Weapons? Let us not even go there.


"IDF is losing this war." Well despite your good wishes and obviously impeccable credentials as a military analyst, I would have to beg to differ. We are certainly not doing anything of the sort. Take the last two daysfor example. We lost 4 men, we confirmed 22 of theirs. This is how it is day in , day out. With the civlians in between us, it will take time but we are in no danger of a loss or even stalemate.
 
rachamim18 said:
GrandmaDeath: "There was evidece that there no Hezbollah in Qana ." Um, I hope you really start keeping up with the news. If you do you might then have heard that just 3 days ago such proof was found. Launchers. You might also want to know that the civilian count from that hit was lowered officially by 2/3rds [HRW, etc]. Please do not fall prey to propaganda.
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Im prepared to stand corrected when you provide the links regading the rocket launchers. As for the body count being lowered-what the fuck am I supposed to draw from that conclusion? I didnt even MENTION figures yet you saw fit to mention the lowering of the original estimate. That holds no truck with me-IDF missiles killed women and children hiding in a shelter. The figure really is irrelevant.
 
rachamim18 said:
"IDF is losing this war." Well despite your good wishes and obviously impeccable credentials as a military analyst, I would have to beg to differ. We are certainly not doing anything of the sort. Take the last two daysfor example. We lost 4 men, we confirmed 22 of theirs. This is how it is day in , day out. With the civlians in between us, it will take time but we are in no danger of a loss or even stalemate.
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The BBC claimed approximately a fifth of Hezbollahs arsenal has been taken out. The amount of missiles being fired has consistently remained the same throughout the conflict. Quote all the figures you want about how many Hezbollah fighters have died-the level of attacks have remained the same since day 1.

Face the facts-Israel are NOT winning this war.
 
rachamim18 said:
"Overwhelming firepower did not win Nam." Right but there is a big difference between the two conflicts. For one, we are fighting against people are publicly committed to our extermination. The Viet Cong simply wanted foreigners to stop ruling them. then there is the case of morale. Allies faced blistering humiliation and pain back home from nations that spat at them. We have a 95% plus approval rating in our nation. then there was the distance factor. Americans for example were on the other side of the globe. R and R to them was a weekend in a Thai or Philippine bar. I am fighting less than a 100 miles from my home and am sitting in my sunroom right now, rested, and ready to go back up north. There are so many differences I do believe I could go on all night.
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The US poured everything they had into a war where on paper they far outweighed the viet cong and they lost-because they fought an enemy who fired and retreated into the night. This is where the similarity exists. The IDF are throwing everything they have at Hezbollah and the amount of rockets being fired after 29 days is still the same.

Your approval rating has fuck all to do with the dynamics of this war and the enemy you face. The bottom line is after 29 days you havent dented Hezbollahs capability to attack Israel. And with the international community bringing pressure down to bear-I guarantee you wont finish the job either. Hezbollah will still be standing after your onslaught.
 
Moono: you must not pick up a paper too much. Israeli civilians have been getting killed since 28 years before we were formally established. Unacceptable amounts of bodybags? One iis too much for us because unlike our opponents we value life. However, most of us are firmly willing to give our lives and the lives of our sons for our nation and people. I know you think only Arabs have that right but that is too bad, this is reality.

Grandma: I will provide the link requested, by tomorrow.

The number of missiles being fired has nothing to do with objectives and gains. If there is no trained personel, they can 10 million missiles and it wont mean much. Israel, like it or not, is the best trained and equipped force in the world. Per capita, we are considered the worlds best military.3000 people with a fews yesrs training from Syrian and Iranain Intel agencies, popping in and out of ratholes will not do a thing to us. Losses are the nature of war. We will lose significantly more than wqe have to date but in the end we will still be living our lives
and the rmemannts of that murderous groups will be back in their ratholes dreming of a new Iran
 
I would suggest that that confirms you as an arrogant fool, Rachamim. You've been bullying the toddlers for too long.
 
rachamim18 said:
Grandma: I will provide the link requested, by tomorrow.
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Look forward to it.

The number of missiles being fired has nothing to do with objectives and gains.
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The objective of the war is to push Hezbollah from the south, stop the attacks and wipe out their members.

You have single handedly ensured a new flow recruits to Hezbollah with your conflict. Whilst you may be reducing active members you have failed because your short term goals mean fuck all when people are so pissed off with Lebanon being bombed into the dark ages.

Granted you are gaining ground by invading but is there any point when current and new recruits to Hezbollah can just regroup?

As for the attacks-the missiles are still flying. You have barely dented their capabalities to launch. You need to wake the fuck up and not swallow your own propoganda.

Israel, like it or not, is the best trained and equipped force in the world. Per capita, we are considered the worlds best military.
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Yes-you did well last time you invaded Lebanon if I recall.

Losses are the nature of war.
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Tell that to the innocent people your missiles have killed in Lebanon.
 
You call actual imagery from the site inferior to something the BBC claims? Then I wont be able to help ypu. I can find plenty of news sources but in good conscience it is a waste of my time. I went above and beyongd and offered actualIntel footage. It even comes with subtitles so one not knowing Hebrew can understand fine. You don't believe that? Well not much left then.

Ill respond to the other post tomorrow
 
rachamim18 said:
You call actual imagery from the site inferior to something the BBC claims?
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No I call a site where ANYONE can submit ANY footage without any sort of scrutiny as questionable.

I can find plenty of news sources
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I tried looking and amazingly I found a few sites that all quoted IDF sources. Call me cynical but when it comes to propoganda I dont trust the IDF.
 
rachamim18 said:
<snip> Bernie: "Without any apparent consultation..." Actually, Nabih Berri [from AMAL] is the person authorised by Hezbollah to negotiate this Resolution on their behalf. In addition he is the Lebanese speaker of Parliament so he speaks for the Lebanese as well.
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Was he involved in coming up with the resolution? It seems unlikely given that he's apparently rejected it on behalf of Lebanon.

In case it wasn't clear, my point "Without any apparent consultation with anyone from Lebanon, the US and France have announced this" was about the process of arriving at the proposal, not their response after it was presented to the world at large.

On the other hand if you have credible evidence that Berri was consulted prior to the announcement ...
 
I just did a trawl of news stories on this, and it sounds like some sort of discussion between a US asst secretary of state and both Saniora and Berri occurred on the day the proposal was announced.

Presumably if the text was discussed then, the US diplomat was left in no doubt that it would be rejected.

Which brings us back to the question of why it was announced if it was an obvious non-starter as far as Lebanon was concerned?
 
rachamim18 said:
TAE: "Explain justice Minister Chaim Ramon's comment: 'All those still left in south Lebanon are terrorists'." Well TAE, that is easy. Ramon meant to say, although I would have phrased it a bit differently, that all civilians from South Lebanon have had more than enough chances to evac out and anyone left could be construed as a valid target.
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That is not what he said though. He called on the army to flatten whole villages no matter who is there.

rachamim18 said:
"Sounds like war crimes." It would be if implemented but then that is why Ramon is a barrister and not a soldier.
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He's a member of the government. The army is normally bound to obey the government's instructions, yet he is telling you to commit war crimes! Do you not think he should be called to account for such outragous statements?

rachamim18 said:
However, we on the ground fully understand that many poor cannot afford the 500 US taxi ride up to Tyre.
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I'm glad to hear that, but excuse me if I'm a bit sceptical about the IDF in general. Not the best track record when it comes to avoiding civilian deaths.
 
'But how can you disagree, don't you understand? Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.'"

"In the US your political parties worry about the Jewish vote - in Europe, political parties worry about the Muslim vote. It's just that simple."

Its painted like bolten and co believe these things when they say them and europe or foreign office officials are much more pragmatic, but I believe they are just blustering and have many different voices for different people...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HH08Ak01.html


Nor, it seems, were the Lebanese consulted at all during the process ????
 
rachamim18 said:
Darth: "Not going after rockets." Not true at all. In addition to that fact, we encounter HEAVY armed resistance in each Shia village [and most abandoned Christain] villages we enter. It is house to house combat so your comments are not making much sense.

In any event, the nature of Assymetrical Warfare dictates moderate to heavy collateral damage on the irregular side. I know it sounds cavalier but Hezbollah iniated the conflict while basing itself in residential areas.
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....... and Israel blindly does as hezbollah want? Or Israel callously disregards civilians? Or Israel is comfortable with/careless of making yet another generation of enemies?
 
rachamim18 said:
You might also want to know that the civilian count from that hit was lowered officially by 2/3rds [HRW, etc]. Please do not fall prey to propaganda.
.
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Oh and since you seem so keen to quote HRW why not post some more information from their web site?

(Beirut, August 3, 2006) – The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) inquiry into the July 30 killing of at least 28 civilians in Qana is incomplete and legally misguided, and contradicts eyewitness testimony, Human Rights Watch said today. The findings underline the need for an independent international inquiry into what took place.

" The Israeli military’s explanation of what happened raises more questions than it answers. Crucial information is missing to determine what led the IDF to attack these civilians. Only an independent international investigation can get at that. "

The IDF announced today that it targeted the building “in accordance with the military’s guidelines regarding the use of fire against suspicious structures.” Since July 12, Hezbollah fighters had launched more than 150 rockets from Qana and the surrounding area, the IDF said. The military said it attacked based on information that “the building was not inhabited by civilians and was being used as a hiding place for terrorists.”

But the IDF failed to provide important details about the attack, Human Rights Watch said. First, it did not say whether it believed that Hezbollah fighters were in or around the building at the time of or directly prior to the attack, which would potentially make the building a legitimate target. Its failure even to make this claim suggests that fighters were not present.

That conclusion was supported by two eyewitnesses interviewed by Human Rights Watch, who said that Hezbollah was not in the area when the attack took place. Human Rights Watch researchers who visited Qana the day after the attack found no destroyed military equipment in or near the home. None of the international journalists, rescue workers and international observers who visited the scene has yet reported seeing evidence of Hezbollah military presence in the area, and rescue workers have not yet recovered any bodies identifiable as Hezbollah fighters.

Second, the IDF did not clarify why it believed that Hezbollah fighters were in the building, rather than civilians. According to Muhammad Mahmud Shalhub, who was in the basement during the attack, 63 members of the extended Shalhub and Hashim families sought shelter in the building when the first Israeli bombs hit Qana in the early evening of July 29. It remains unclear why the IDF, with superior aerial surveillance, did not know the families were there.

“Why did the Israeli military consider the building ‘suspicious’?” Roth asked. “What information did it have to reach that conclusion?”

The IDF also repeated previous statements that it had warned Qana residents to evacuate, thereby suggesting that it was the victims’ fault because they chose to remain. But in Qana and other villages in southern Lebanon, thousands of residents have been unable to leave the area because they are sick, wounded, do not have the means to leave or they fear Israeli attacks on vehicles.

“The Israeli military cannot warn people to leave and then attack at will,” Roth said. “The warnings are not an excuse to shoot blindly at anyone who remains.”

In a report issued today, “Fatal Strikes: Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon,” Human Rights Watch documented a systematic failure by the IDF to distinguish between combatants and civilians. In some cases, the timing and intensity of the attack, the absence of a military target, as well as subsequent strikes on rescuers, suggest that Israeli forces deliberately targeted civilians.

Of all the cases of civilian casualties included in the report, Human Rights Watch found, none involved Hezbollah deliberately using civilians as shields to protect them from retaliatory IDF attack. Hezbollah has occasionally stored weapons in or near civilian homes and placed rocket launchers within populated areas or near United Nations observers. Such acts are serious violations of the laws of war because they violate the duty to take all feasible precautions to avoid civilian casualties. However, those violations did not account for the many deaths recorded in the Human Rights Watch report. Nor do those cases justify the IDF’s extensive use of indiscriminate force, which has cost so many civilian lives.
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Source
 
rachamim18 said:
Thanks for the tip on "Rules of Engagement" but there is no such thing. Each armed force offers its own guideline which may chnage with every armed conflict, and even battle. International Law and Convention does dictate some universal truths and these are in fact always observed by Israel.
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Oh well we can just agree to disagree on that-and whilst you're at maybe you'd like to go about correcting all of these sources:

The obligations to respect international humanitarian law, including to refrain from deliberate or indiscriminate attacks on civilians and to take all feasible precautions against civilian casualties, persist regardless of the conduct of one's opponent. Grave breaches remain war crimes. Otherwise, it would take just one side's charge of abuse, one side's claim to have been the victim of aggression, to return to the era of total war in which all civilians are fair game.

Source

Israeli authorities have claimed that Hizbullah intentionally used civilians in Qana as "human shields". International humanitarian law expressly prohibits the use of tactics such as "human shields" to prevent an attack on military targets. However, international humanitarian law also makes it clear that even if one side is shielding itself behind civilians, such an abuse does not "...release the Parties to the conflict from their legal obligations with respect to the civilian population and civilians."


Source

1. The right of parties to an armed conflict to choose methods or means of warfare is not unlimited. No superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering shall be inflicted.

2. In order to spare the civilian population, armed forces shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and civilian objects on the one hand, and military objectives on the other. Neither the civilian population as such nor individual civilians or civilian objects shall be the target of military attacks. [2]

Source

I could go on.

Now would you care to provide me with the evidence that suggests each armed force has its 'own guideline' which makes its exempt from international law?
 
Pat Lang has just published some poll data on the proposal.
The survey had one question: "Should Lebanon consent to international resolutions that are in conflict with the seven points that were adopted by the Lebanese government"? 88% of the Lebanese people said no. Shi`ites had the largest percentage of rejection (96.6%); followed by Sunnis (91.4%); followed by Christians (80.4%), and then Druzes (79.4%).
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source

So it looks very much like the Lebanese government's response is in tune with the popular response, an overwhelming majority in favour of rejecting any peace proposal that e.g. doesn't involve Israel getting the fuck out of their country.
 
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