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a marxist history of the world- counterfire

General point: Louis was directing his post at the ayatollah (and what a fitting board name for one so dogmatic and authoritarian) regarding his 'harsh advice' for other posters not to associate with "Butchers , (and violent Panda, 39th Step, Love Detective" and, for some reason best known to himself, the lead singer from Def Leppard - due to our collective undermining of the ability of the working class to emancipate itself through its own self-activity by disagreeing with him on here.

He has previously suggested in my case at least that i do this work due to being some sort of undercover fascist, some sort of tout or grass or some sort of copper/secuirity service bod. As a sign of his general clear grasp of the current general perspective he has also argued the working class is just about to go over to the SWP en masse.

Heed the prophets harsh advice!
 
JoeElliott.JPG
 
General point: Louis was directing his post at the ayatollah (and what a fitting board name for one so dogmatic and authoritarian) regarding his 'harsh advice' for other posters not to associate with "Butchers , (and violent Panda, 39th Step, Love Detective" and, for some reason best known to himself, the lead singer from Def Leppard - due to our collective undermining of the ability of the working class to emancipate itself through its own self-activity by disagreeing with him on here.

He has peviously suggested in my case at least that i do this work due to being some sort of undercover fascist, some sort of tout or grass or some sort of copper/secuirity service bod. As a sign of his general clear grasp of the current general perspective he has also argued the working class is just about to go over to the SWP en masse.

Heed the prophets harsh advice!

Inspired.
 
Are bulletin board posts and posts in a comments box, of any consequence to the emancipation of the working class by the working class?

A very different question from the one I asked and which prompted you to produce your spurious analogy; what is the point you are trying to make?

Louis MacNeice
 
General point: Louis was directing his post at the ayatollah (and what a fitting board name for one so dogmatic and authoritarian) regarding his 'harsh advice' for other posters not to associate with "Butchers , (and violent Panda, 39th Step, Love Detective" and, for some reason best known to himself, the lead singer from Def Leppard - due to our collective undermining of the ability of the working class to emancipate itself through its own self-activity by disagreeing with him on here.

To be fair, Joe is a fiend when he's been on the coke. I wouldn't associate with him either. He comes over all "Iron Lady".

He has previously suggested in my case at least that i do this work due to being some sort of undercover fascist, some sort of tout or grass or some sort of copper/secuirity service bod.

Well you are. I saw you at Century House last week when I was picking up my paycheque and some fresh ammunition!

As a sign of his general clear grasp of the current general perspective he has also argued the working class is just about to go over to the SWP en masse.

Heed the prophets harsh advice!

The working class will only ever be "about to go over to the SWP en masse" in the micro-seconds before a massive asteroid strike destroys the earth, and even then they'll only do it for a laugh.
 
A very different question from the one I asked and which prompted you to produce your spurious analogy; what is the point you are trying to make?

Louis MacNeice
that "effectively", neither are of any use.

Between them, butchers panda pickman are approaching, roughly, a quarter of 1 million posts. Most of their political stuff, like this thread, sneering at people who are blissfully unaware. Effectively, for the emancipation of the working class by the working class, for what? If their posts cannot 'rubbish that cause', can they build it?

Whilst rubbishing socialists/ism, they don't accept the challenge to present a coherent alternative. Without constructive criticism, what is the point for people who want to change the world, Socialists?

Sure, it's good to have your views challenged, but with no coherent alternative they are like navelgazing philosophers, "Philosophers have interpreted the world in various ways, the point however is to change it" . Harsh, IMO, no.
 
that "effectively", neither are of any use.

Between them, butchers panda pickman are approaching, roughly, a quarter of 1 million posts. Most of their political stuff, like this thread, sneering at people who are blissfully unaware. Effectively, for the emancipation of the working class by the working class, for what? If their posts cannot 'rubbish that cause', can they build it?

Whilst rubbishing socialists/ism, they don't accept the challenge to present a coherent alternative. Without constructive criticism, what is the point for people who want to change the world, Socialists?

Sure, it's good to have your views challenged, but with no coherent alternative they are like navelgazing philosophers, "Philosophers have interpreted the world in various ways, the point however is to change it" . Harsh, IMO, no.

Ayatolla was accusing posters of the gargantuan task of rubbishing socialism; that is what I said was impossible to do on a bulletin board.

However, posts on the internet can play much smaller roles such as criticising an article for providing at best a partial and therefore misleading historical account.

You seem determined to compare apples and orchards; it's a pointless exercise so I'll leave you to it.

Louis Macneice
 
Ayatolla was accusing posters of the gargantuan task of rubbishing socialism; that is what I said was impossible to do on a bulletin board.
Well in my opinion you are putting your usual dishonest spin on his words;
I've pondered this issue too (with genuine growing sadness ) for some time MP3, especially as some of the people who post in the same general terms as Butchers are old ex-comrades with a very creditable political past. (Butchers probably does himself - but because of our assumed names apart from "Joe" I don't know who anyone really is).

Butchers , (and violent Panda, 39th Step, Love Detective, Joe Elliot , and a few others in their loose self-supporting claque) -, are in my opinion nothing more nowadays than disruptive "pseudo radical Trolls".. having some sort of general " anti capitalist" personal ideology/ies , and often a good grasp of marxist theory, but essentially really simply deriving great satisfaction from picking constant fault with other, particularly Radical Socialist, posters, bullying them if possible (as he has just done outrageously to you on this thread MP3 - you were far too patient, you should have told him to fuck off a long time ago), and always trying to prove that they alone have the "real insight" as to what is "going on" ,as opposed to to all us clumsy schmuks, with our outdated 19th century socialist ideology.

However I have noticed that Butchers and his ilk will NEVER go into any detail as to what his/their "immensely superior" global analysis and offered "political solution" actually is... NEVER. Because he/they simply haven't got a coherent one -- or not one which they are prepared to spell out on Urban anyway. . Despite Butchers outraged claiming of no connection with the IWCA there is a very nasty sub theme running through the periodic postings of this little , perhaps loosely connected, mutual support group when issues around "multiculturalism", Muslims and supposed " grooming" predilictions, and the impact of immigration on "indigenous job opportunities, the "unstoppable rise of the Far Right, the "uselessness of the Left"... surface....because here they all tail behind the Lumpen white working class support base of the Far Right, by making very slippery, unspelled out, concessions to these Lumpen obsessions and misrepresentations.

My harsh advice to fellow radical socialists is to treat this loosely connected little coterie of obsessive posters with considerable suspicion, and not to allow them to rubbish the socialist cause with the endless posturing of being genuine anti capitalist radicals that they have chosen to present for years on Urban and other Boards. Beware them all . They are not nowadays actually allies of the radical Left in my opinion..
However, posts on the internet can play much smaller roles such as criticising an article for providing at best a partial and therefore misleading historical account.
a quarter of 1 million posts from just three people? what percentage of them do this? The vast majority I see are just sneering at someone. Dickman almost entirely, Panda less so..

You seem determined to compare apples and orchards; it's a pointless exercise so I'll leave you to it.

Louis Macneice
Which is the exact point I made. In fact in the very first post I asked people to provide an alternative. As far as I know nobody has produced a like-for-like alternative, IE a newspaper style article, similar length, and from the same International affairs perspective.

there is nothing fraternal about this thread, is there?
 
Ayatolla was accusing posters of the gargantuan task of rubbishing socialism; that is what I said was impossible to do on a bulletin board.

However, posts on the internet can play much smaller roles such as criticising an article for providing at best a partial and therefore misleading historical account.

You seem determined to compare apples and orchards; it's a pointless exercise so I'll leave you to it.

Louis Macneice
and a second bite at Cherry. Whilst as a gargantuan task it may be impossible, they do try to rubbish socialism at every opportunity. What's more, politically they are bound to, literally bound hand and feet to.
Anarchism as a revolutionary political philosophy has many different voices, origins and interpretations. From the individualist anarchism of Stirner, to the collectivist, communal anarchism of Bakunin and Kropotkin, anarchism is diverse series of philosophies and political strategies. These are united, however, by a fundamental rejection and critique of political authority in all its forms. The critique of political authority — the conviction that power is oppressive, exploitative and dehumanizing — may be said to be the crucial politico-ethical standpoint of anarchism. For classical anarchists the State is the embodiment of all forms of oppression, exploitation and the enslavement and degradation of man. In Bakunin’s words, “the State is like a vast slaughterhouse and an enormous cemetery, where under the shadow and the pretext of this abstraction (the common good) all the best aspirations, all the living forces of a country, are sanctimoniously immolated and interred.” 9 The State is the main target of the anarchist critique of authority. It is for anarchists the fundamental oppression in society, and it must be abolished as the first revolutionary act.

This last point brought nineteenth century anarchism into sharp conflict with Marxism. Marx believed that while the State was indeed oppressive and exploitative, it was a reflection of economic exploitation and an instrument of class power.
Thus political power was reduced to economic power. For Marx the economy rather than the State was the fundamental site of oppression. The State rarely had an independent existence beyond class and economic interests. Because of this the State could be used as a tool of revolution if it was in the hands of the right class — the proletariat.
10 The State was only dominating, in other words, because it was presently in the hands of the bourgeoisie. Once class distinctions have disappeared, the State will lose its political character.
11 Anarchists like Bakunin and Kropotkin disagreed with Marx precisely on this point. For anarchists, the State is much more than an expression of class and economic power. Rather the State has its own logic of domination and self-perpetuation, and is autonomous from class interests. Rather than working from the society to the State, as Marx did, and seeing the State as the derivative of economic relations of capitalism and the rise of the bourgeoisie, anarchists work from the State to society. The State constitutes the fundamental oppression in society, and economic exploitation is derived from this political oppression. In other words, it is political oppression that makes economic oppression possible.
12 Moreover for anarchists, bourgeois relations are actually a reflection of the State, rather than the State being a reflection of bourgeois relations. The ruling class, argues Bakunin, is the State’s real material representative. Behind every ruling class of every epoch there looms the State. Because the State has its own autonomous logic it can never be trusted as an instrument of revolution. To do this would be to ignore its logic of domination. If the State is not destroyed immediately, if it is used as a revolutionary tool as Marxists suggest, then its power will be perpetuated in infinitely more tyrannical ways. It would operate, as Bakunin argues, through a new ruling class — a bureaucratic class that will oppress and exploit workers in the same manner as the bourgeois class oppressed and exploited them.
 
Well in my opinion you are putting your usual dishonest spin on his words...

...Which is the exact point I made.

In fact in the very first post I asked people to provide an alternative. As far as I know nobody has produced a like-for-like alternative, IE a newspaper style article, similar length, and from the same International affairs perspective.

1. I quoted what he said. What he said was silly which is his problem not mine.

2. It is a completely different point; one you see determined to miss.

3. Perhaps the reason nobody has done it, is because it's a bad idea due to the very partial nature of the historical account that would neccessarily be the result.

Louis MacNeice
 
that "effectively", neither are of any use.

Between them, butchers panda pickman are approaching, roughly, a quarter of 1 million posts. Most of their political stuff, like this thread, sneering at people who are blissfully unaware. Effectively, for the emancipation of the working class by the working class, for what? If their posts cannot 'rubbish that cause', can they build it?

Show me a post where I've sneered at anyone who is "blissfully unaware". Go on!
You won't be able to, because I don't have a go at people who are uninformed, just at the dogmatists like you and ayatollah. You see, uninformed people can inform themselves if they wish to. It's a simple process. Dogmatists, though...it's more difficult to deprogram someone. To get them to "update" their cherished political beliefs.

The real joke here is that you obviously don't realise what a rancid sneerer you yourself are.
 
It's quite scary, the thought of someone like ayatollah getting even a whiff of power over people. Wouldn't touch his 'socialism' with a barge pole.
 
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