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911 - please don't flame me

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editor said:
Aw. Doesn't it mention missile firing, remote control pretend passenger aircraft, self-exploding, pre-wired WTC towers and faked passenger calls, then?

DrJazzz will be disappointed.

This post would seem to sum up your whole attitude to 9/11. I wasn't asking what DrJ thought about that website, i was asking you. But you seem unable to answer the simple question, even though you're always asking others for asnwers to your own questions. And you seem to be unhealthily obsessed with DrJazzz.

Come on editor, what do you think about the site?

[And stop calling for proof. None of us on urban has got any. You haven't got any proof for your version of events, and that is the least likely version that occurred. None of was there, none of were in the planning, so none of us have got proof. Stop calling for it. It's a poor technique at derailing debate.]
 
fela fan said:
You fucking deceitful pig. This thread had a chance on the first page of getting down to debating properly what went on over 911.

"All this conspiracy stuff" my arse. So are you saying to the forum that everything about 911 is 'conspiracy'? Have you even looked at the site? Why do you have to reduce it all to 'conspiracy'?

What the fuck are you on? Do you know the meaning of debate?

Keep it to one thread!!! Fucking hell. We've done 'conspiracy' to death. Here is a website, entirely compiled from mainstream media souces, and you're on about bloody 'conspiracies' and keeping them to 'one thread'.

God there's some self-deluded souls amongst us.

in what way am i ;

1. deceitful
2. a pig

i'm just suggesting that all the 911 discussions be kept in one thread. then you come wading in making personal attacks instead of attempting to clarify what i am putting forward.
 
fubert, you're not either. I'm sorry. I carried some other baggage into that post, which was about me, not you. Apologies are most in order.

But some of that baggage by way of a tiny excuse is that i'm fed up with how these threads become 'conspiracy theories'. I had been hoping this one might get by without this particular language, and then coming in after my beers, i saw your post, a red flag went up! Sorry man.
 
Hi Fela

I think we can be more sure that we have access to evidence. The type of evidence a prosecutor or jury would include in a court of law. Most watched the events live on telly. After all most the law enforcement or judicial systems are not there in person at the scene of a crime or witness to its planning and yet crimes are solved and evidence collected. Eleen Mariani, the 9/11 widow who has brought the case against Bush and co for 9/11 was not there and yet she is able to file a lawsuit backed pages and pages of credible evidence.

Editor, are you aware of the numerous people within the system who have come forward and tried to 'blow the whistle' with evidence that challenges the official story? I also find the media silence or compliance strange after the initial flurry of interest in the weeks and months following 9/11 that mean a story like the Mariani lawsuit are not considered news worthy. Or rather I find it highly suspicious and in keeping with my understanding of how much of the media lie and self censor themselves.
 
sparticus said:
Editor, are you aware of the numerous people within the system who have come forward and tried to 'blow the whistle' with evidence that challenges the official story?
No, I'm not, so I'll look forward to reading your links to corroborated, credible, solid evidence of the testimony of these 'whistle blowers' on credible, fully sourced websites/media outlets.
 
sparticus said:
I also find the media silence or compliance strange after the initial flurry of interest in the weeks and months following 9/11 that mean a story like the Mariani lawsuit are not considered news worthy. Or rather I find it highly suspicious and in keeping with my understanding of how much of the media lie and self censor themselves.
Have you any evidence of any website, anywhere, being silenced or censored because they were offering alternative theories about what happened on 9/11?

People have been at complete liberty to post up a whole host of 9/11 theories here for two years and I've never been under any pressure from anyone to stop them freely expressing their opinions.

Seeing as this site enjoys a reasonably high international media profile, why do you think that absolutely no effort has ever been made by outside agencies to censor any of the debate discussing 'alternative' 9/11 theories here?
 
Editor, i think you'll find he was talking about mainstream media, papers, not websites. Certainly not urban!

There can be absolutely no doubt about the, in effect, silence employed by the investigative parts of newspapers. Stories do get in the papers, but no real investigation is done in trying to link the stories together, in trying to complete the jigsaw puzzle.

And this is odd.
 
Ps, have you read any of the cooperative research website yet?

Very interested to get your views on it. Coz it is fully sourced, all from mainstream media, thorough, and with no typos at all. And as a site developer, you should find it easy to marvel at the sheer amount of work this man must have put in.

Generally to the forum, the usual suspects on our 911 threads have been a bit quiet on this thread. I hope it's coz they're still reading the cooperative research website and realising that something very dodgy went on... ;)
 
cos there's some barking conspiracy theories here i expect a lot of people regard all of them as tainted, no matter how truthful some of them turn out to be.
 
Pickman's model said:
cos there's some barking conspiracy theories here i expect a lot of people regard all of them as tainted, no matter how truthful some of them turn out to be.

PM, no those who normally shout 'conspiracy theory' enjoy doing so. They keep coming back for more. With the exception of editor, they've absented themselvse on this thread. They're all more than happy at throwing the CT label about, regardless of what is actually being claimed.

So when i put up a comprehensive, 'conspiracy theory'-free website, entirely sourced from mainstream media, all those posters who normally come to 911 threads to bark 'conspiracy theory' and who like to ridicule posters who question the events, have COMPLETELY DISAPPEARED!!

Editor hasn't, but he won't comment on the site. And anyone with an open mind is going to be very persuaded.

How about you, take a look...
 
maybe later - i'm knackered and the constant cups of tea no longer suffice to keep me awake. now the crucible's over i think it's about time for bed.
 
Pickman's model said:
maybe later - i'm knackered and the constant cups of tea no longer suffice to keep me awake. now the crucible's over i think it's about time for bed.

Enjoy the kip.

But i'd like to add that each person has their own chance at keeping an open mind, and if they choose to close it because of what other people are saying, it's not my loss ;)
 
Hi Editor

I was indeed referring to mainstream print and TV news media, since this is where control is tightest (due to concentration of ownership in a few powerful corporations hands) and where the majority of people gain their understanding of 'news' and current affairs and what passes for informed debate. This link http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchive/2004-03-29-clarke.php suggests some answers to how and why

As for whistleblowers I don't have a list to hand so I will need to draw them to your attention as I come across them. Here is one recent example that was in the news over the past weeks (except again only on 911/alternative news media)

http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchive/2004-05-07-sibel.php orginial source Baltimore Chronicle on a translator who worked translating 9/11 intelligence post 9/11. Attempts to bring this evidence to public have been consistently blocked

http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarchive/2004-05-11-workers.php
This is not so much whistleblowing as relevent testimony being blocked. Numerous emergency staff have drawn attention to evidence that calls into question the official version of events such as the radio communications between firefighters claiming the fires had peaked and were under control.

Then there is this evidence from the authoritative testimony of U.S. attorney David Philip Schippers, former Chief Investigative Counsel for the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, and head prosecutor responsible for conducting the impeachment against former President Bill Clinton found here. Schippers acted as a conduit for numerous concerned FBI agents who were aware of AlQ's plans and whose investigations were being blocked within the FBI. Schippers repeatedly tried to bring this evidence to senior levels including John Ashcroft but was 'ignored'.


That will do for now
 
sparticus said:
As for whistleblowers I don't have a list to hand so I will need to draw them to your attention as I come across them....
So, no actual hard evidence of 'whistle blowing' that supports your LIHOP theory then...
 
Clearly you haven't read the links

In the case of Schippers I would say that is pretty hard evidence.

It is hard to say what the translator would tell us since this testimony is blocked although it is possible to read between the lines and understand what links this testimony would uncover.

The point I'm making is following on from your point that any cover-up would require silence amongst all the hundreds and thousands of people who would need to be involved and I say many people have come forward and presented evidence either of cover-up and blocking of the investigation or with hard evidence that contradicts the official version.

Indeed all the hard evidence I have cited previously of prior warnings both from outside intelligence services and internal (FBI/CIA) intelligence warnings are in effect people coming forward to contradict the official story based on these quotes

"We’ve been focusing on this perpetrator Osama bin Laden for 3 years, and yet we didn’t see this one coming,” said Vincent Cannistraro, former chief of CIA counter-terrorism operations. A U.S. Air Force General described the attack as “something we had never seen before, something we had never even thought of.” FBI Director Robert Mueller further declared that “there were no warning signs that I’m aware of.” Senior FBI officials insisted that in terms of intelligence warnings received prior to 11th September: “The notion of flying a plane into a building or using it as a bomb never came up.” According to this official version of events, no one in the Bush administration had the slightest idea of the identities of those who orchestrated the 11th September attacks, the nature of their plans, or their targets.

In response to Kyser's post on whether it is reasonable to expect US authorities to be able to sift through all the different intelligence information coming in and piece it together, yes I believe this is reasonable. US spends circa $40bn/year on intelligence services, far more than any other nation, they have the most sophisticated technology such as echelon, etc. Yet a whole host of less well resourced intelligence services (Germany, Russia, UK, Eygpt, etc......) managed to piece information together and offer the US specific warnings that 9/11. What is Condoleza's job if it is not keep track of the major threats to US security. If AlQ/bin Laden did not make the top 10 threats she had to track before 9/11, I would like to know what did.

Given the sheer number and quality of specific warnings contradicting the official story (eg FBI Director Robert Mueller “there were no warning signs that I’m aware of."), I struggle to understand the thinking and motives of people wedded to the official version
 
Editor, since you're often calling for hard evidence (and what is 'hard' evidence? Surely evidence is evidence?), could you oblige by defining what you mean by this term? Because surely everything we read anywhere is not evidence, just what they say.

Only courts deal with evidence. Debating forums debate. We claim something, and back it up with details and/or examples. By continually calling for something out of opinion forums that cannot by normal definitions exist, you put everyone in the position of being unable to deliver.

Which is most unfair debating. What do you mean by 'hard evidence'? Tell us the criteria by which you judge this.
 
fela fan said:
(and what is 'hard' evidence? Surely evidence is evidence?)

Oh, c'mon. You've shown signs of sanity before now. I'd have thought you'd appreciate that a major difference between a conspiracy theorist and a rational being is the difference between their respective understandings of what counts as evidence.
 
laptop said:
Oh, c'mon. You've shown signs of sanity before now. I'd have thought you'd appreciate that a major difference between a conspiracy theorist and a rational being is the difference between their respective understandings of what counts as evidence.

Careful now laptop! But seriously, who, on these threads, is a 'conspiracy theorist' in your book? And do you believe them to not be rational? Because you've separated the two.

And i wanted to know from editor what he defines 'hard evidence' as, because even when what i, a rational being, believe 'counts as evidence' has been presented to him, he then ignores. So i needed a narrowing of the definition so that i could take into account what his connotations of the word include.

Incidentally the phrase 'conspiracy theorist' is even more open to varying connotations.

And i continue to note that no-one seems interested in commenting on the cooperativeresearch website that this thread began to be about. Because contained within that site is as near as 'evidence' any of us are going to get outside of a court of law.

The silence, to me, is most interesting. But continue the debate on semantics, it's my field mate ;) . I'll keep replying to you...
 
editor said:
I'm not making any claims, although it does seem rather strange that this amazing 'story' doesn't seem to have been worthy of further comment in the mainstream press for the subsequent two years.
So do you mean to suggest that the lack of follow up coverage of the investigation into trading anomalies which indicate prior knowledge of the attacks is due to those investigations leading nowhere (rather than directly to the doors of those responsible as would be expected)?

Or do you mean that it is 'strange' that the last reports to appear in the mainstream media suggested that the majority of these trades were handled by the bank which until recently was chaired by the current Executive Director of the CIA, just before the 'story' comletely disappeared?

Basically, I'd like to know if you think the story was quashed (censored) in the media, probably because further investigation would show complicity or precise foreknowledge (much the same thing) of elements of the USG in the attacks, or you think the story was dropped because 'there was nothing in it'?


editor said:
But if you think that elements within the stock market were forewarned and complicit in 9/11, I'm all ears.

So, what proof have you got?

The transactions cited by snopes.com in my previous post were being reported less than a week after the attacks.

The initial reaction in the media was to assume that such dealings would obviously be traceable back to Bin Laden, as this BBC report from Tuesday 18th September 2001 demonstates:

Investigations are under way in Europe, Japan and the US into unusual share price movements shortly before last week's terror attacks on America.

The suggestion is that Islamist dissident Osama Bin Laden, or some of his supporters, may have tried to profit by engaging in "short selling" of stocks likely to be affected by the atrocities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1548118.stm

Two weeks further on, we are told...
Wednesday, 3 October, 2001, 08:59 GMT 09:59 UK
US launches terror trading probe

The US financial markets watchdog has drawn up a list of 38 companies whose shares saw large selling orders just before they were hit by the 11 September terrorist attacks.

The Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) has launched a probe into the trading of shares in major airlines, cruise liners and insurance companies, as well as in companies that had offices in the World Trade Center.

There is suspicion that some investors had knowledge that the attacks were imminent, and that they sold shares in order to profit from the inevitable plunge.

The SEC has asked financial firms, including brokerages and investment banks in both the US and Canada, to search their books for unusual trading patterns from 27 August to 11 September.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1576470.stm

So what were the results of the SEC 'probe'? What did it reveal?

Nester augmented his response by adding that "according to SEC Associate Director of Enforcement Bill Baker -- who just spoke on a panel outside New York last week -- our SEC probe is much broader than investigations made by countries in Europe (who also lost citizens), many of whom have already closed their financial investigations of investment banks like Deutschebank." No results of those probes have been made public.

While the SEC media director said "the investigation is still ongoing with no current conclusions," Nester (speaking for the SEC), had difficulty explaining the job description of current New York Stock Exchange (NYSE) Executive Vice President for Enforcement, David P. Doherty. He would only say that the NYSE "regulates itself as an SRO or self-regulating organization...." This vague answer is all the more provocative because Doherty is a retired General Counsel of the Central Intelligence Agency.

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/12_06_01_death_profits_pt1.html

Well, we don't know. They won't tell us.

Interestingly, Harvey L. Pitt (Chairman of SEC from August 2001) quit at the end of 2002, under heavy criticism over the way he handled the Enron (and others) fraud.
He was slammed for meeting with top executives of companies that were under investigation by the SEC.

A former lawyer for the major U.S. accounting firms, Pitt was also chastised for his ties to the industry when the several companies became embroiled in the fraud scandals that have gripped the U.S. over the past year.

Pitt is also said to have resisted the appointment of John Biggs to head up a new accounting oversight board. Pitt was accused by Democrats of bowing to accounting industry pressure in resisting the appointment of Biggs, who supporters thought would call for tougher accounting standards.

Pitt's latest problems surfaced last week, when he failed to release information about William Webster, the former CIA and FBI director who was recently picked to head the accounting oversight board. Pitt did not disclose to fellow SEC members that Webster once headed the auditing committee for the board of directors of U.S. Technologies, which is being sued by investors alleging fraud.

http://cbc.ca/cgi-bin/templates/print.cgi?/2002/11/06/pitt_021106

The 'insiders' investigating 'insiders'.

Under US laws, brokerage houses and banks cannot disclose purchase and sales records or publically identify their clients.

Only the SEC, the FBI or Congress can demand disclosure.

I have so far failed to even find a mention of any investigation into short selling of specific stocks preceding the September 11th attacks. Check for yourself: http://www.sec.gov/index.htm

It's simply disappeared down the 'memory hole'.

By the way - who did GWB 'tap' to replace Pitt as head of the SEC? Why, it was fellow 'Skull and Bones' man William Donaldson. (source)
 
The editor, along with all the usual suspects, aren't interested in evidence fela, they're only interested in promoting their own hilarious "it was Al-Q wot done it honest guv!" paranoid fantasy wherever they can. Whenever any evidence is presented to the forum contradicting this absurdity then they always apply the same method:

1. They pretend that the evidence doesn't exist by generally never reading it, just like now for example. That way they can better disregard it whenever its placed in front of them

2. Or, alternatively, they set about the task of character assassination. For example, Dr Sacristan and the Barcelona university where she teaches.. not to mention the Spanish La Vanguardia newspaper who commissioned her analysis.

If you can imagine any of the usual coterie of deniers presenting what passes for their case in a proper court of law, then you will begin to see that they would all be thoroughly humiliated and exposed by any half compedent defence barrister, who would simply ask them to present the "hard evidence" they must possess proving unaquvaicably that 19 Al-Q operatives passed through any of the targeted airports on the morning of September 11. Every last one of these charlatans would in the end be forced to admit that they haven't actually got any! At which point the judge would automatically acquit bin Laden.

However, here in the high court of Urban75, certain important principles of law under which we all live in the real world only get in the way of a jolly good paranoid fantasy yarn and so an evidential double standard is ruthlessly enforced.
 
Bigfish said:
promoting their own hilarious "it was Al-Q wot done it honest guv!" paranoid fantasy

It's you that's the paranoid fantasist mate.

Or, alternatively, they set about the task of character assassination. For example, Dr Sacristan and the Barcelona university where she teaches.. not to mention the Spanish La Vanguardia newspaper who commissioned her analysis.

I have already said on another thread that I took up your challenge.

1. Dr Sacristans e-mail address comes back as an unknown recipient. Now the school purports to be a center of excellence in engineering, electronics and computer programing so even if Dr Sacristans e-mail had been inundated in conjunction with her analysis why id it so hard for them to remove her e-mail address from the website?

2. La Vanguardia claim to not have the photo's that Dr Sacristan analysed. Which I find incredibly unusual considering most newspapers have excellent archives.

Or is it that some conspiracist has cobbled this whole story together to try and back up their bonkers theory about missile firing planes? :)
 
bigfish said:
The editor, along with all the usual suspects, aren't interested in evidence fela, they're only interested in promoting their own hilarious "it was Al-Q wot done it honest guv!"

Yes and no mate.

Most certainly they're not interested in any evidence, they just keep calling for it, but when it's been thrust in front of their faces, they ignore it (see website link on which this thread is based, CT accusers). It obviously pains them for whatever reason. And i guess we know the reason, but stating it to the deniers will just attract more ad hominem attacks, their speciality.

As for promoting their own version, this is where i depart mate! They don't promote any version. They spend their entire time in a state of mock derision, simply attacking anyone that dares question the official version of events.

Still, it's their choice to close their minds. As evidenced by their refusal to read that website and/or comment on it.

Some folk simply aren't interested in learning, they just want to spout as much as possible. Rubbish most of the time. They belong to the group of 'I already know, so no need to investigate any further', while interestingly they accuse others of the same thing.

It's truly amazing.
 
fela fan said:
Some folk simply aren't interested in learning, they just want to spout as much as possible.
So there you have it.

19 lines of non-stop, wall-to-wall ad hominems.
 
editor said:
So there you have it.

19 lines of non-stop, wall-to-wall ad hominems.

You appear to have no idea of what an 'ad hominem' attack is.

In order to make an ad hominem attack on your position, you would first have to state your position (which you of course cannot) then cite some information to support it. One could then ignore the contents of the information you supplied, and instead attack the source of the information, for instance, by saying 'Hey, that person you cite was wrong about something else, or mentions UFOs or whatever, therefore they must be wrong about everything!"

That would constitute an 'ad hom' attack. Merely accurately describing your 'debating tecnique' does not.

Any chance of answering my question? Why do you think the results of the SEC investigations into 'insider trading' are unknown?
 
editor said:
So there you have it.

19 lines of non-stop, wall-to-wall ad hominems.

No, for one who does an expert turn in them yourself, it becomes clear that you don't even know what you're doing!

You can't even count. It was 12 lines. And it wasn't 'non-stop', there were six paragraphs, and thus five breaks.

As usual you didn't even address the opinion being expressed, just went for the poster's jugular.

When are you going to answer my questions, as well as BB's?? Or are they too close to the bone?
 
fela fan said:
No, for one who does an expert turn in them yourself, it becomes clear that you don't even know what you're doing!

You can't even count. It was 12 lines.
Depends on the width of your browser, idiot.
 
And while you are answering BB's question here are a few more, asked again

Why is the current investigation entirely glossing over the specific internal and external warnings prior to 9/11 and instead just dealing with general banalities of lessons to be learnt. What is your explanation of how they failed to act in response to these specific warnings?

And what is your explanation of the unprecedented air defense failures that I have set out for you in an easy to follow timeline to save you actually having to visit or comment on the co-operative research website?

What is your explanation of General Myers testimony that US planes were only scrambled after the pentagon was hit?

Whether incompetence or criminal complicity on the part of the USG, surely everyone who wishes to know the truth should support the 9/11 families in their call to hold Bush accountable and to end the deliberate stonewalling and cover-up. Would you disagree?

Some specific answers to specific questions would be nice. Alternatively you can continue to flame your own site and alienate your own users?

Ian
 
editor said:
Depends on the width of your browser, idiot.

You said 'non-stop'. I wrote six paragraphs, therefore whatever the browser was doing there were five breaks.

Even bigger idiot.
 
But now i know. When the topic becomes one you can't throw 'conspiracy theory' at, you simply ignore it. Only when you get a whiff of CT do you stay on topic. Otherwise you just ignore it.

Instead of course, you attack the poster. But wait a minute, when it's 'CT' stuff, you also attack the poster... do you even debate on this subject? When i come to think about it, maybe the answer is a resounding NO.

Go on, why don't you define what 'hard evidence' is. Especially the bit 'hard' that you like to italicise...

Go on, why don't you comment on this cooperativeresearch website? I mean you love giving us your critiques on websites to do with 911, why not this one? Why are you ignoring commenting on this particular website when it was the focus and central tenet of this thread?

C'mon, on topic please, deal with the relevant questions. Just like you called on the other thread going at the minute. Dozens of times you asked for us to answer the questions, so now i'm asking you to do the same on this thread.
 
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