*Police/public relations - Brian, your opinion?

It has always struck me that, historically, one of the main problems faced by Brixton is the lousy relations between the Police and the community (in all its diversity)
I'd be interested in hearing Brian's views on this. Such as a) what do you think are the root causes of this, and b) what d'you think can & should be done to improve those relationships? And to lessen tensions?
And yes,I'd be grateful if we could all hold off till Brian has commented, if that is possible? Ta.

Red

A number of reasons really.

First, there has in the past been some discrimination against black people in Brixton by some police officers. Things have enormously improved in recent years. A racist police officer now is a rare thing indeed.

Second, in the 1980's when I was in Brixton first, if you were black and were arrested, everyone assumed you would be mistreated by the police. If you were well treated, no-one would believe you.

So historically, it has been part experience, part myth.

The way you change perceptions is to change people's experience of the police on the street. We have been gradually doing this. More and more people are having positive experiences at the hands of the police in Brixton.

The other way of course is to be seen to be combatting things that local people are against, like crack cocaine and herion.

Darcus Howe came to see me before Christmas. He said he had noticed a gradual improvement in police community relations in Brixton over the years. "In the past 12 months there's been a revolution " he said.

I'm glad you're back even if you n' me dont agree on stuff. (And your mob have whacked me up so many times its untrue, well, twenty or so I guess.)

Isn't there a case in Brixton (as pointed out by someone else) that the crime/Brixton linkage is made over and over again. Wheras there is crime in Gateshead, Wrexham, Carlisle in abundance no one ever looks there. Wouldnt that be a big point to make ?

Gosh theres so much stuff to talk to Big B about...im gonna PM you again if thats ok Big B...

On the subject of race relations in general and in particular the stigma between the Metropolitan Police force and black people in South London I came across it yesterday.....I work with many black people born and bred in South London, Brixton, Streatham, Tulse Hill and a couple born and bred in North London, Hackney. Yesterday one of our Muslim collegues was harrased by a racist man while on his lunch break, it became so bad he was physically set upon by this man in the street, his turban was ripped from his head and thrown into the street. My collegue ran off narrowly avoiding following his turban into the street traffic. He called the police who duly arrived into my work place, I was shocked to hear the resentment and distrust of the police that was spoken by my black collegues almost within earshot of these uniformed officers.......further investigation revealed a lifetime of bad experiences which had over time formed this opinion of the police, I chatted for ages and eventually got over the points about supporting the police and not alienating them, the converstion turned to black-white and preferential treatment. It was hardwork trying to encourage support but I suppose every little helps.

The cycle of these thought processes can be reversed and I think it has already started really. But it will take time.

Adam, Brixton is an icon, has been all the time I've lived here, particularly to the press and those who live elsewhere. That's why our parochial issues interest outsiders.

Over the years the meaning behind the icon has changed: these days if you say you live in Brixton the conversation starts with guns and crack, but in the early 70's it was slums & immigration, and subsequently became barricaded squats (eg Villa Rd) and the gay scene on Railton Rd that interested outsiders; then 'sus', later rioting, later mugging, and so on. That's not to deny the Brixton=crime/trouble/frontline image: I'm trying to say the icon can change. Many's the time I've just said Sarf Lunnon when asked where I live, just to avoid repeating the stereotypical conversation of the moment. I doub't that happens in quite the same way to the good folk of Wrexham.

A website such as this could, possibly, be produced from Gateshead or Carlisle: the fact that it hasn't perhaps tells us something. In any case the local board, the bit that discusses particular pubs and individual streets, simply wouldn't attract pundits from across the country or the world, who think they have something to say.

Gunter Grass used to say, about Berlin when the wall was still up, that it was ' the city closest to the realities of the age'. In a lesser way that's a role Brixton occupies, what happens here matters to the rest of the country. That's why transforming both the reality and the icon is so important.

Hmmm...not sure about that newbie. I think the majority of attention Brixton has had over the years has been racist. From the press especially.
If black people commit crime its interesting if people in Gateshead commit crime its not interesting. The fact that young men commit most crime is ignored in preference of `racialised` statistics and a pre-occupation with non-white young men who commit crime.
I also dont see how Brixton is relevent to the rest of the country as so often what `brixton` really is, is obscured.

...gotta run...

I agree that things are really improving regarding relations between the police and the community. The nail bomb really helped improve relations with the police and the community pulled together in a tangible way. There was a lot of cynicism about the statement that the BNP wasn't involved and the bomber was a lone racist, but otherwise the community was pretty much right behind the police.

Brian is right about perception, for instance a year or so ago there was a death in custody which illustrates this point well. What happened was that a man was found collapsed in Lambeth, the ambulance crew told the police that he was drunk and they weren't going to take him to hospital. He was then taken to a Lambeth Police Station to sober up where the Custody Sergeant was concerned about the mans condition and got him straight to hospital where the man later died.

Now, as far as I'm concerned, the police did nothing out of order and the blame for the mans death lies with whoever attacked him before he was found on the pavement (I believe he had a non-visible brain injury) and the ambulance crew. However that death will show in the statistics as a death in custody, and I heard a lot of local grumblings about Police Brutality at the time, concerning this very incident.

I had dealings as a Lay Visitor with the Custody Sergeant concerned and he was always regarded by me as an extremely good and caring Custody Sergeant who didn't cut corners, did his job properly and all with a very pleasant manner. If I have got any details about this incident wrong, I'm sure Brian will correct me. I never spoke to the sergeant concerned about this incident, I was told about it by another Lay Visitor.

Just a personal experience that changed my opinions on the police relations. I cannot comment on whether relations have improved etc but I can share my mixed experience.

I have been to Brixton a few times with a friend who previously lived there. Had an excellent night in all cases, found people friendly and never felt like the out of towner I was.

HOWEVER, one evening, got back to my car after the club and I had been broken into - heh that life!

BUT what startled and disgusted me was after reporting it to the police mainly for a crime number for insurance I spoke to a very friendly helpful policeman. No problem. BUT i had to call back giving some more details. The lady officer asked what the incident was and were the car was and her comment (I remember this VERY clearly) was

"Well madam, what else did you expect leaving your car there?"

WTF??? Actually I expect you to be more respect of the area you police, respect is a 2 way think. A simple comment like that offended me greatly.

Sorry if this is off topic, just thought I would share.

There is a definite problem with some officers who don't like this area at all. The first time my Mum came to Brixton she stopped to pat a Police Horse and told the officer she was here on holiday. He gave her a really grumpy discourse on how this was the last place he'd come on holiday and told my Mum it was a crime-ridden dump. I was really upset about this. I am sure that now Brixton is headed by someone who loves the area he serves that this will improve.

Mrs M

I agree totally and I know that that was a one off but it offended me soo much and i wasn't even from the area. Took me ages of ranting to get it out of my system.

I too am hopeful things are/will change for the better and I cannot wait to come down again

Bump....the reason why I started this thread was that it has struck me that one of the causal factors behind Brixton's (relatively) high crime rate is that young men (including young black men) feel alienated from a society which seems to offer them (as well as a raw deal re Education/public services) little incentive to abide by the rules, but more importantly they feel traditionally alienated by a face of authority which has no connection with their community and has often seemed like a hostile occupying force. Equally, the job of the police is to uphold the law- which means apprehending many of those young men.
In other words, a vicious circle. If we can square this circle - and I entirely accept Brian's point that there has been a marked improvement in recent years - then we will be on the way to a real sea-change.
And, IMO, community policing means somewhere along the line the community accepting those police as part of a solution not a problem - seeing them as THEIR police.

Deaths in custody

There will always be deaths in custody, Just like there are deaths everywhere else.

The problem is with peep's experiences of assault or racism whilst in custody, Or more importantly seeing/hearing this in public.

If a section of the community is aware of discrimination and hears about a death, conclusions are drawn.

Personally, I think with more and more cameras at stations and for that matter everywhere this will improve. There will always be individuals who arn't objective about race or class, though think how much this has changed (In some parts of the world) in the last 10 years(or 20 etc) I believe with greater efforts to stamp out thuggery and racism within the force that things will slowly improve.
I don't expect it to happen overnight or even in a few years But slowly and surely they must get there.

If as the evening standard reports today we are heading for a tolerant and legalised cannabis consuming society, sections of the community alienated by ganja use will no longer have gripes against the police from school age up

Prehaps this is the first step in a reintergration of societys needs and policing, rather than the criminalisation of victimless pasttimes.
I feel local groups need more say into what is and isn't tolerated within there boundaries(providing no-ones getting hurt) and policing was done in cooperation instead of in opposition to a communities needs/wants.

Great to see you are still able to post Brian. Newbie - I agree. (What a boring contribution from me. Maybe I'll come back to this when my thoughts are clearer).

Just thought i would add that i don't think CCtv will change that much as it's already got a track record of 'not showing anything of use' or disappearing...

Brian the top cop said " in the 1980's when I was in Brixton first, if you were black and were arrested, everyone assumed you would be mistreated by the police. If you were well treated, no-one would believe you. So historically, it has been part experience, part myth."

Yes but speaking about the black political experience this is an entirely reasonable judgement, power has always been against them and assuming the worse is a political defence against oppression to galvanise a wider consciousness. No amount of 'good cop honest', if it's here at all, can change the economics, and the police DO enforce class law....

In my recent experience the cops haven't changed one little bit, perhaps their PR has improved if anything... btw I'm with Adam Porter most of the way normally... till they live in the communitys they 'police' i can see no real and meaningful trust developing (the Coronation street cop is an illusion at present...)

Crime is always Political because Politicans make the laws. They are the only ones who say what the Police can and cannot do. The 'Community' does not police itself, this is an illusion. The Police Police the 'Community', and whenever there is a change in power or economics the Police are there to respond to the change.

So of course Black people in Britain are going to be sceptical of a Police force which as Parliament does not reflect them as a group. Whether in offering them information on solving crime or believing the death in custody, death by CS or long arm baton was strictly above board.

I'm sick and tired of reading the papers and seeing the news and hearing of crime or deaths in custody. My initial reaction is 'I hope they're not Black' and I shouldn't have to think like that. For me this media, Police, and legal, and parliamentary obcession with 'Black' crime is getting a little broing. Black people have been in Britain for many years and old communities are in places other than Brixton, some are even out of London. GET AWAY I HEAR SOME PEOPLE SAY.

It says something about of society where less than 4% of the population can take up so much news headlines for the wrong reasons.

Personally I wanna hear about the crime rate in Tiverton and Henley on Thames.

Personally I wanna hear about the crime rate in Tiverton and Henley on Thames

Click to expand...

Remarkably low on gun violence and crack busts ...

Sorry to sound flippant paul, and I do see your point absolutely, but while theres higher crime in one area than another, the publicity will always focus on (and sensationalise) the higher crime area, that's life!

Personally I think the over focussing on Brixton and Hackney with nothing ever said about OTHER high crime areas like parts of Manchester, B'ham, Geordieland, etc. is a more relavant concern.

Londoncentric media ...

You do see more police almost painfully trying these days, but then this week I went to see the film 'Injustice' (semi-regular at the Prince Charles, Leicester Sq - highly recommended) and you realise just how much has to be repaid...
So much of it is still tied up in the whole drugs thing - how many people out on Fri/Sat night are genuinely comfortable passing a couple of police, even if they're just checking all's OK? I know the comparison's been done to death, but in Amsterdam, say, you do get the feeling the poice are protective rather than part of a surveillance operation.

Okay - so I'm a non Brixton resident cribbing the Brixton thread - but last week the home office (with tongue-lolling media in tow) exited london (for a morning) and trotted down to my neighbourhood (Easton in Bristol) to reel out Blunkett's ticket printing S&S launch.
Much was made about the crime levels in the area – and the size of the resident black population. But the race card being played (cynically) by Blunkett and picked up (enthusiastically) by the press has little relevance to the situation confronting local people.
Basically like in Brixton, smack and crack dealers are doing their best to tear the community apart. The dealers (black and white - but increasingly Jamaican yardies) and the punters jacking up on our doorsteps (black and white) are all complicit in the massive upsurge in muggings and other anti-social behaviour, and the subsequent tension in the streets. The police (almost exclusively white) are completely unwilling to deal with the situation – and appear to be letting it escalate in the hope it will result in a cash injection from above (Avon and Somerset chief constable has said as much – and the total inaction on the ground – backs this up).

Despite Blunkett (and others before him) embracing “local businessmen” (two Easton residents groups were prevented access to the Home Secretary, but a hand-picked guestlist of hi-salaried ‘community workers’ and a locally despised loan shark made the cut) as “the community” and embracing their reactionary calls for stop and search and CCTV as potential ‘solutions’, the genuine community – the black and white people who live here and have to deal with the crackheads and knife merchants on a daily basis – are well aware that neither the politicians or the police have any inclination to stop this kind of community butchering. There is a flagrant policy of containment in Bristol – drug dealing/street crime is nurtured in Easton/St Pauls. This is the case. A casual observer would say – to keep an eye on it and keep it out of the ‘nice’ bits of town. A more cynical one might say – to keep the potentially most inflammatory elements of society preoccupied, and at each others throats. [I have no idea if Brixton is used in a similar fashion].

Anyway – cutting to the upshot of all this – the community (black and white) consensus is that if anything is going to change – it isn’t going to come from city, state or police authorities. Action groups have sprung up all over Easton – meetings are being held – with a view to taking mass community action to improve the situation. This is not about vigilantism, but saying ‘right, enough is enough’ – we don’t want to be pushed round by yardie pimp dealers or racist cops. We are far from total agreement on specifics (the anarchists and the CCTV brigade at either end of the hall), but the days of lobbying and waiting and hoping for the old bill or other self-appointed community leaders to sort it out seem to have passed.

Apologies about the length of this post (and for straying from the original thread), but I would like to know how Brixton people are uniting to tackle anti-social behaviour, and what people on this list reckon. Okay, so we know crack dealers and muggers are merely subscribing to the same greed driven mentality as every corporate CEO - the single message peddled by schools, governments and television, the same one (often unwittingly) picked up and driven home by parents and peers alike. Namely, the only thing little Jonny should be concerned about is: how much money he can accumulate in his life, how many 'things' that will enable him to 'buy', and how much 'power' it will afford him. Society tells him - do anything, and step on anyone, in order to further your individual position. There is no obligation to the community as a whole. Having said that (and taking it as read that we’ll have cracked this nut by the time we get to the Paddick-esque anarchist utopia of the future), we still need to address the here and now, and as several people mentioned, this kind of situation isn’t exclusive to Brixton - we’re all on a collective learning curve…

Policeman can smile

I agree with a lot of what has said on this thread.

The best way to see if someone is happy is to: look in their face and guage their body movements.

Over the years I have made judgements that at the time were OK and were fully suppoted.
Later when other facts came to life these judgements were overturned by superiors.
It's great to say that in this country with its diverse population we can talk together.

India Pakistan Afganistan Palistine Israel Zimbabwe et all.
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Adam you are so right - there are so many issues to discuss.

Police and 'the black community' are two enormous groups of people with a whole range of individuals within them - we have to be careful not to over-generalise.

Typical encounter a few years ago - even relevant for some of the players on both sides now: Police officer walking towards young black guy - thinks - is he a robber? Is he going to give me grief? (What the cop doesn't know is, statistically, the black guy is more likely to be a victim of crime than a robber - fact). Black guy walking towards the police officer - thinks - some of my mates say they have been picked on for no reason by the police - am I going to get harassed? (Some of his mates have been but some say it because of peer pressure, not personal experience.) They give each other hostile/suspicious looks. No chance of a smile, no chance of speaking, just hostility.

Of course there is no smoke without fire. There have been racists masquerading as police officers in the past. You know how those from the black community who are accused by their black brothers of 'selling out' are called 'coconuts' - black on the outside and white on the inside? (The idea is they are not really or genuinely black - they are traitors to the black community.) Well I think about racist and corrupt police officers in the same way. They are criminals in police uniforms - not genuine police officers. Of course you cannot tell by just looking at them and they do an enormous amount of damage to the reputation of the police service (in the same way that black criminals damage the reputation of the black community).

Of course this is much wider than just 'racist' policing. The real evil lies in the discrimination in society as a whole - you only have to look at the over-representation of black people in poor housing, amongst the unemployed and those in poverty. I make no comment on the bias of laws against the poor because this would be immediately seized on by my critics and we will have another totally distorted media frenzy. What I am trying to do is to ensure my officers enforce the law evenly no matter what an individual's wealth or colour and to try to even-out any in-built bias.

We have got to get past the stereotypes - not all black people are criminals (in fact only a tiny minority are). Not all police officers are racist, corrupt, unpleasant, (put your own stereotypical, unjustified-by-experience adjective here) - in fact only a tiny minority are.

So why such anti-police views (set aside the political perspective for a moment) apparently based on experience? You don't go into work and tell everyone "I had a good journey into work today" do you? You only tell everyone when something like "You won't believe it but for the first time in my life I had a puncture this morning" happens. It's not only the papers who love to tell us about the bad news! Don't get me wrong. There should be no negative encounters with the police, but have you never had a bad day? I have already discussed ideal worlds but as I said then - let's get real. We have to deal with reality.

Good to be back. Brian

Nice post and I agree with your statements. The thing is Police = the human face of the establishment we see everyday thus people will always use them as a verbal punchbag.

I think the Police are in a no win situation most of the time because they have to inforce law and everyone has a least 1 law they don't agree with.

How many Brixton cops lived in the area before they began to police it? Are they just 'serving time' there before they can get assigned somewhere else?

The sneering attitude that some of the posters have experienced from police officers about their local community, seems to indicate that they don't in any way consider it to be their local community. They appear to want to distance themselves from it. Are they just passing through, or have I got the wrong impression? What's the turn-over?

Interesting reading Flaco. Keep us informed of your communities progress.

Unfortunately Brixton lost good local officers under the 'Ten Year Rule' which meant that you couldn't serve in the same area for more than ten years. I think that it was set up to break the 'cosy-cosy' relationships that can happen in an area when everyone drinks at the same golf club or whatever and to help prevent corruption. Loughborough Junction lost a brilliant ally when this happened to us. A brilliant officer. Example. He said that if he got spat at, he knew it was the uniform that was being spat at, not him personally, and therefore wouldn't then steam in and create an incident. He liked to communicate instead and shift perceptions. There are local officers though. I know a young woman officer serving Brixton who is local. I think she still lives at home because there is no way that she could afford to buy herself a place. That is a huge problem for people here.

I saw a black female police officer in Brixton the other day. Nearly dropped dead from shock!

Welcome Flaco - there is another poster who talks in detail about St Pauls you might want to exchange views with. I think he pops up on the "Brian - Can I bend you Ear" thread. I'll see if I can locate his posts for you.

Yes, it's here:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2688&highlight=bristol

Alright Flax...nice bit of work.

Originally posted by The Black Hand
In my recent experience the cops haven't changed one little bit, perhaps their PR has improved if anything... btw I'm with Adam Porter most of the way normally... till they live in the communitys they 'police' i can see no real and meaningful trust developing (the Coronation street cop is an illusion at present...)

Click to expand...

While I can see the benefits of this, ie more familiarity with and care for the community, it does i think raise security problems. If a copper lives in the community he polices, he lives on the doorstep of some of the people he is forced to arrest. And if we're talking about tooled up dealers, as would sometimes be the case, we're not talking about nice people. They wouldn't have to go to particularly great lengths to find out where the copper who had them sent down etc. lived, and then that pc could be open to revenge.
I do speak from experience (although not personal, I admit- a good friend of mine in Brum has an uncle who is a Chief Inspector in West Mid's Police. Over the last five or six years he has had to change address four times for his own personal safety. This is a real problem.

Paul Gilroy (rasta boffin) wrote an essay called the myth of Black criminality.

In it looks at the reasons for this media, and political frenzy of so called 'Black' crime. And the underlying reason was the fear of the foreigner or difference. The frenzy and panic of the 'Yardies'. A Yardie is someone born in Jamaica. So does that make my mother a gangster? No. Most of them are Jafakans anyway.

'Black' crime is just the politicans way of making up statistics, figures, and creating panic and fear amongst the vast majority of law abiding 'white' communities of Britain.

My ex-partner works in Kings Cross....And if anybody dares say a word, i'll find you. What she told me was that Kings Cross and Camden as a whole is the drug and alcohol capital of London. Where people are hassling you and shooting up from morning to night. Much more scary for her than Brixton.

I think personally that there is a lot of envy of Brixton. Over the years it's had it's problems, people harrasment and worse of all John Major saying he used to live there.



But we should be bigging it up and not listening to the gutter press and politicans. It is a bubbling lively multi-cultural cool and stylish part of the world. We must resist the trashing of it. Crime is everywhere, drugs are everywhere. Yardie is a Jamaican.

WoW point taken about Henley on Thames and the lack of busts. But if there were raids in that part of the world, i'm sure the dibble would find more than just a few bottles of vintage Bollinger.

The Myth of Black Criminality from Law order and the authoritan state.

Edited by Phil Scraton Open University Press.

i would totally support what paul boateng just posted. having had reason to go to some of the bedsits behind kings cross recently i can honestly say that it puts all of lambeth to shame, it was like one of those jacques cousteau films where he goes to the bottom of the ocean and shines a light on all of them strange creatures.

the thing about yardies applies to any non-white crime; just look at any report on chinese crime is triads etc

yardie clear up

Just to clear up - when i mentioned 'yardies' in my post - I didn't mean 'black men'. I meant the specific group of young men that have come from Jamaica to deal crack cocaine and pimp out young girls in my area. On the weekend a friend of mine (a fifty five year old Jamaican woman) had one of these young men break into to her home - she confronts him when he's walking out the door with her hoover. He pulls out a kitchen knife and tells her he's going to stick it in her throat. Understandably, she says keep the fucking hoover - it isn't worth dying for...

The point I'm trying to make is - there are some seriously anti-social people operating in society - and a small fraction of them happen to be Jamaican 'yardies'. This is not a comment on skin colour but on their brand of anti-moral ultra capitalism (ie do anything and everything to anyone and everyone in order to makwe money and extend your influence). There's lots of well sound Jamaicans in Easton - I wouldn't describe any of them as 'yardies'.

Also re the distrust of the police within the community. Perhaps Britain would do well to split the roles that the police play... (in Spain the federal Guardia of Civil are rightfully despised by the community for their role is as state spies and executioners of state policy vs the people. They are deliberately sent to areas they do not come from - so there are no feelings of belonging or any kind of obligation to the community - they are housed in 'barracks' apart from everyone else). The local police, on the other hand - who's role is seen more as one of protection (I appreciate this is a massive over-exageration) - are accepted on the whole by the community - they will be local people and seen as part of the community.

The British police - have chosen to follow the Guardia model - they have deliberately created an 'us' and 'them' situation. They act as protectors of the rich and henchmen of the current economic/political regime. If Brian wants his officers to be regarded as part of the community and to act as defenders of the community, maybe he should suggest removing them from the more insiduous elements of the police force - and task them with looking out for local people and concentrate on sorting out anti-social behaviour that affects them (not only drug dealing and violent street crime, but bad landlords, housing provision, air quality, affordability of food, inappropriate land use, etc etc). A community will always be suspicious of any element who comes and 'pushes them around' and tells them how to behave. Personally I never chose to abdicate responsibility for my actions to any 'higher' authority - muggers or cops - maybe the illegitimacy of their authority means the police will never be part of the community...