What's Your Vision for the Market?

On Saturday 29th May, Friends of Brixton Market is asking everyone interested in Brixton Market to come together and help us develop a vision for the market we can promote to the council, landlords and Brixton community.

• How do you see the market?
• What does it need?
• What needs protecting?
• Who should the council promote the market to? How?
• What new kinds of services could be developed in the market?
• What facilities are needed?
• Do you want the market to go up market?

Meet at 1pm at Vida Walsh for a tour of the market and then a workshop where your ideas and needs will be recorded to form our vision document.

Food from the market will be provided!

AGM
This will be our first AGM and we will be electing members to join the FBM committee and to take roles (Chair, Treasurer, Secretary, Membership Secretary, Communications Secretary, Fundraising Officer and Community Engagement Officer). As we are required by Companies House to have a board of directors, all committee roles are also directors positions.
We will also be electing 5 members to the FBM committee in a non-role holding or directorial capacity.

Any member can attend, stand for election and all members can vote, so please get in contact if you'd like any more details about what is involved or would like to join the group.

contact@friendsofbrixtonmarket.org for more info...

See you there!

I kinda like it the way it is... sorry... its nicely ramshackle. Why do you want develop it?

I'd lose the newish restuarant down the witchcraft shop end that attracts massive queues of smug looking claphamites tho

fbm said:

our vision document.

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My vision would be for a world where people didn't use this kind of business speak.


Regarding the market, I'd also like to see it remain a bit ramshackle and occupied by the kind of stalls that are there now.

I would like the new craft/art/tat shops to stay in the minority (Brixton Village I'm thinking of here specifically).

I realise that there are reasons that the above might not remain economically viable, but I hope this will not be the case.

I would hate to think that in 5 or 10 years it will be like Spitalfields and all full of overpriced organic cake stands, cured sausage stalls and people with stupid glasses selling ironic t-shirts.

Gabi/ Teuchter: Please come on the 29th.

Gabi: Many FBM members kinda like it the way it is too. But there are many people involved in Brixton who want to change it. FBM isn't into development - we think the question is: what does Brixton need from its market? If keeping it how it is is what Brixton wants/needs, how do we work to keep it that way...?

(also - just to clarify FBM isn't some kind of cadre of disciplined apparachiks spouting a party line, but a diverse group of concerned people with a range of views and some big disagreements...)

Teuchter: FBM is not an advocate of the 'craft/art/tat shops' that are emerging. I think it's probably fair to say most FBM committee members (I can't speak for the membership as a whole) do think there is room for a mix of shops aimed at a mix of incomes/ cultures / tastes/ classes - but there is also deep concern about the cover these new shops may provide for rent hoiks and the implications of Brixton Market ending up as a 'shopping destination experience' such as Spitalfields.

The aim of the workshop on the 29th is to try to start to develop consensus around a coherent argument for what the market means for the people of Brixton, and a set of strategies for making our VISION a reality.

(re 'Vision' - yes it's a bit cringey. But I figure this: 'Vision' isn't a word invented by 'Business'. It's just that business has learnt to incorporate words/ideas like vision into itself. But I think its reasonable to argue we shouldn't deny ourselves the possibility of being visionary (- especially if that basically means of being optimistic?) because of that. And also, aside from that, let's pick our battles: if we need to use 'Business Speak' in order to convince Business (or the council) that our argument is right, we may have to use their language to do so.)

Please come - and this goes for anyone else reading this concerned with gentrification, or with keeping Brixton Market ramshackle, or who wants development, or who wants chic boutiques, or thinks ramshackleness is beside the point, or who thinks thinks the market doesn't serve the people of Brixton well.

If it takes a big argument to work this all out, let's have it:
See you at 1pm at Vida Walsh on the 29th!

gabi said:

I'd lose the newish restuarant down the witchcraft shop end that attracts massive queues of smug looking claphamites tho

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Do you mean the pizza restaurant called Franco Manca?

The same one which was a pizza restaurant called Ecco for about 15 years before that? The one where you can buy a woodfired pizza and homemade lemonade for little more than the price of a KFC Zinger meal? The one that buys loads of its salad veg and other ingredients from the grocers next door? Yeah - definitely get rid of that.

Small independent shops, eh! - who on earth do they think they are coming 'round our Brixton and serving good food people actually want to eat? Clogging up all that valuable space with customers when what we actually need is another Cottage Chicken, 'Sports' shoe shop and a Nail Bar. Don't they know that I've lived here longer than them? The bloody cheek of it...

gabi said:

I'd lose the newish restuarant down the witchcraft shop end that attracts massive queues of smug looking claphamites tho

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Massive queues? Damn them. Definitely get rid of a place that's popular and bringing people to the market.

what witchcraft shop ? where is it ?

gabi said:

I kinda like it the way it is... sorry... its nicely ramshackle. Why do you want develop it?

I'd lose the newish restuarant down the witchcraft shop end that attracts massive queues of smug looking claphamites tho

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Newish? You mean Francos that has been there for at least 30 years? Right

Ok, it has had a few Dr Who type regenerations but its still so essentially the same as it ever was that it really is an institution!

Rushy said:

Do you mean the pizza restaurant called Franco Manca?

The same one which was a pizza restaurant called Ecco for about 15 years before that? The one where you can buy a woodfired pizza and homemade lemonade for little more than the price of a KFC Zinger meal? The one that buys loads of its salad veg and other ingredients from the grocers next door? Yeah - definitely get rid of that.

Small independent shops, eh! - who on earth do they think they are coming 'round our Brixton and serving good food people actually want to eat? Clogging up all that valuable space with customers when what we actually need is another Cottage Chicken, 'Sports' shoe shop and a Nail Bar. Don't they know that I've lived here longer than them? The bloody cheek of it...

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I agree with all of this.

I have found the new shops in Brixton Village (Granville Arcade) to be a great addition to the market. It's not as though they're pushing out people that have been there for a long time. The units were empty, ffs, and there are still a lot of empty places. Cornercopia serves great food at very reasonable prices. I love the vintage shops and the second hand shops, which are also pretty good value. Federation Coffee is an asset to the area. The place is buzzing on a Thursday evening and at weekends - that wasn't happening before. You can still buy your fish/vegetables/African food/general household items - I don't see what the problem is with regeneration.

I guess the fear is, that with these places being successful, it demonstrates to the landlords (who are the council, is that right?) that there is potential for the market to be used in different and potentially more lucrative ways than is the case at the moment, and that the market will gradually become more popular with the kind of people who like vintage clothes shops and organic cafes and what have you, and those places will gradually become more profitable and the landlords will see that they can raise the rents, and the African food stalls etc will become under pressure that they aren't under right now to either pay more rent or move out to make way for other uses.

It's happened in other parts of London - Spitalfields and Brick Lane being the most obvious examples, Covent Garden before that. Whether such changes are "better" or "worse" is kind of subjective, but there's no doubt that if the same happened to Brixton Market, it would substantially alter the nature of central Brixton.

It sort of depends how you feel about letting market forces freely determine use, versus keeping less lucrative uses alive in the interests of local character, possibly at expense to the council.

If it's the case that the market is dying and its traditional customer base is diminishing, then perhaps you have to pragmatic and accept that you can't keep it on a life support system forever. I don't know if things are as bad as that. Maybe if I make it to this meeting I will be able to become better informed.

I'm OK with the principle of a bit of a mix up of different uses, with the yuppie cafes co-existing with the African food shops etc, as long as it's somehow set down that they should remain in proportion, rather than allowing a gradual takeover of the whole place (and in London, "gradual" can be pretty fast - I've only been here 10 years but seen parts of the East end change substantially in that time).

When I first came to live in Brixton, seventeen years ago, the outdoor market was much better than it is currently in terms of fruit and veg stalls. There were several stalls on Electric Avenue/Pope's Road which I used regularly. I remember buying wild mushrooms on occasion from one of them. They've all gone, unfortunately, and now I mainly buy my fruit and veg from the farmer's market on a Sunday.

The outdoor market is definitely in decline, and there doesn't seem to be a strategy to combat that. Brixton Village has benefitted from a concerted effort to bring a different clientele to the area, and I think that needs to be encouraged. I don't think the concern about rent hoiks is justified - afaik many of the shops were able to open because they were offered the space rent-free for a time. I don't get the impression that they are coining it in, and many are keeping their prices deliberately low.

teuchter said:

I guess the fear is, that with these places being successful, it demonstrates to the landlords (who are the council, is that right?) that there is potential for the market to be used in different and potentially more lucrative ways than is the case at the moment, and that the market will gradually become more popular with the kind of people who like vintage clothes shops and organic cafes and what have you, and those places will gradually become more profitable and the landlords will see that they can raise the rents, and the African food stalls etc will become under pressure that they aren't under right now to either pay more rent or move out to make way for other uses.

It's happened in other parts of London - Spitalfields and Brick Lane being the most obvious examples, Covent Garden before that. Whether such changes are "better" or "worse" is kind of subjective, but there's no doubt that if the same happened to Brixton Market, it would substantially alter the nature of central Brixton.

It sort of depends how you feel about letting market forces freely determine use, versus keeping less lucrative uses alive in the interests of local character, possibly at expense to the council.

If it's the case that the market is dying and its traditional customer base is diminishing, then perhaps you have to pragmatic and accept that you can't keep it on a life support system forever. I don't know if things are as bad as that. Maybe if I make it to this meeting I will be able to become better informed.

I'm OK with the principle of a bit of a mix up of different uses, with the yuppie cafes co-existing with the African food shops etc, as long as it's somehow set down that they should remain in proportion, rather than allowing a gradual takeover of the whole place (and in London, "gradual" can be pretty fast - I've only been here 10 years but seen parts of the East end change substantially in that time).

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Have you actually been to any of these so-called "yuppie" places? I go into Brixton Village pretty regularly, and many of them are at pains to stay accessible, and their prices mirror that. They are low-key businesses who've been given a break (free rent for a few months). They are by no means exclusive and I see all sorts of people using them.

The reason they are cheap now is that, as you say, they are paying low or no rent. And they have to work hard to get the customers in, because most people still wouldn't think to go into the market to have a coffee or whatever. Once they have established themselves, and Brixton Village becomes more widely known as a place to go for that kind of stuff, things will change. I kind of avoid saying "gentrification" because it's such a loaded term, but it's the classic gentrification cycle: slightly more adventurous types set up shop in an area because of cheap rents, they attract customers who are a slightly more adventurous subset of relatively affluent group, the rest of whom follow slightly after, and then suddenly the area is "desirable" and expensive.

Franco Manca's is a good case in point: like several folk have pointed out, it's been there in various incarnations over the years - but only in the last couple has it suddenly become insanely popular. The main reason for this, as far as I can see, was that it was "discovered" and written up by Time Out. Whereas previously it saw custom from a mix of people, probably mainly local-ish, it's now become a destination because it is "known". I don't think you can say that it is now just more busy with the same type of people - now a lot of its customers are coming from elsewhere and I think it's fair to say that the queue contains a disproportionate amount of what someone else stereotyped as "smug claphamites". Apply the same kind of changes to several other places in the market and you can see it will become a different place.

To be honest I'm not sure how worried I should be about the gentrification of Brixton - it seems to have been predicted for some time without that much really happening, and I think there are various reasons that we shouldn't expect to see quite the same thing that has happened to the East End. (By the way I accept that my desire not to see Brixton gentrified is mainly selfish, and to a certain extent hypocritical as I'd arguably be part of it myself, but there you go.)

I think the market could do with a bit of a spruce up and that's about it. A fresh lick of paint and making sure utilities are up to standard are supposedly, um, standard responsibilities for the landlord, surely.

I'm not in favour of any sort of overhaul which results in big rent hikes which push either the organic wild caper bread out nor the flashing flourescent jesus fancy goods stalls out, nor those inbetween the two, resulting in either the place being overrun with knick knacks and virgin virgin olive oil or the place dying on its arse. I certainly wouldn't like to see the customers priced out.

Hm. I might have a think about what I would actively like to see there. Variety I suppose.

teuchter said:

Franco Manca's is a good case in point: like several folk have pointed out, it's been there in various incarnations over the years - but only in the last couple has it suddenly become insanely popular. The main reason for this, as far as I can see, was that it was "discovered" and written up by Time Out. Whereas previously it saw custom from a mix of people, probably mainly local-ish, it's now become a destination because it is "known". I don't think you can say that it is now just more busy with the same type of people - now a lot of its customers are coming from elsewhere and I think it's fair to say that the queue contains a disproportionate amount of what someone else stereotyped as "smug claphamites". Apply the same kind of changes to several other places in the market and you can see it will become a different place.

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I think you're quite probably right that the 'discovery' of Franco Manca's resulted in outsiders visiting but I doubt they are still coming from very far 2 years later, and bringing their mates here too especially to have a pizza in a market.

What is more likely I think is that people who lived here but didn't necessarily avail themselves of local shops and eateries to any great extent ventured in there and are now a bit more likely to go there and maybe try other places and maybe suggest their mate come meet them here for saturday lunch.

Of course this still amounts to much the same change in character as if it was people nipping over from Clapham or wherever.


Presumably the stalls were empty because the businesses which were there weren't finding it profitable. If they are not to remain empty then new blood of some description needs to be found, both in the form of businesses and customers. There are sufficient shops sellling yams and salt cod, I think, so what do we get in?

Franco's has nearly always been insanely popular. 28 years ago you had to get there for midday and still queue to get a table - just as today. It was already being favourably reviewed and people travelled all over London to eat there.

teuchter said:

The reason they are cheap now is that, as you say, they are paying low or no rent. And they have to work hard to get the customers in, because most people still wouldn't think to go into the market to have a coffee or whatever. Once they have established themselves, and Brixton Village becomes more widely known as a place to go for that kind of stuff, things will change. I kind of avoid saying "gentrification" because it's such a loaded term, but it's the classic gentrification cycle: slightly more adventurous types set up shop in an area because of cheap rents, they attract customers who are a slightly more adventurous subset of relatively affluent group, the rest of whom follow slightly after, and then suddenly the area is "desirable" and expensive.

Franco Manca's is a good case in point: like several folk have pointed out, it's been there in various incarnations over the years - but only in the last couple has it suddenly become insanely popular. The main reason for this, as far as I can see, was that it was "discovered" and written up by Time Out. Whereas previously it saw custom from a mix of people, probably mainly local-ish, it's now become a destination because it is "known". I don't think you can say that it is now just more busy with the same type of people - now a lot of its customers are coming from elsewhere and I think it's fair to say that the queue contains a disproportionate amount of what someone else stereotyped as "smug claphamites". Apply the same kind of changes to several other places in the market and you can see it will become a different place.

To be honest I'm not sure how worried I should be about the gentrification of Brixton - it seems to have been predicted for some time without that much really happening, and I think there are various reasons that we shouldn't expect to see quite the same thing that has happened to the East End. (By the way I accept that my desire not to see Brixton gentrified is mainly selfish, and to a certain extent hypocritical as I'd arguably be part of it myself, but there you go.)

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They are cheap because they are in Brixton, and they know what prices the area can sustain.

Franco Manca is successful because its product is very good, and the prices very fair. It's packed during the week as well, when the clientele is very different to a Saturday.

The established people in the market (eg the fish stall in Brixton Village, which has been trading for forty years) have been complaining for a long time about under-investment and a gradual falling off of trade. Keeping everything the same is not an option, really.

miss minnie said:

Franco's has nearly always been insanely popular. 28 years ago you had to get there for midday and still queue to get a table - just as today. It was already being favourably reviewed and people travelled all over London to eat there.

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Really? For pizza? I've still never been. I'm not much on pizza.

quimcunx said:

Really? For pizza? I've still never been. I'm not much on pizza.

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It wasn't as popular (or as good) as Franco Manca, to be fair. But it was usually busy.

fbm: it would help if you said where Vida Walsh was, btw. As a long-term Brixton resident, I had to look it up...

Ms T said:

It wasn't as popular (or as good) as Franco Manca, to be fair. But it was usually busy.

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Franco Manca wasn't as popular or as good as Franco Manca?

quimcunx said:

Franco Manca wasn't as popular or as good as Franco Manca?

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It was called Francos back in the day, then Eco. Franco Manca means Franco Missing, and is a homage to the old Francos.

Wasn't there an Eco pizza place in Clapham about 12 years ago?

Just to clarify - the covered markets aren't owned by the council. Market Row and Granville are owned by London and Associated Properties. Reliance is owned by a different private company. LAP are property developers. Their previous intention was to knock Granville down and rebuild with flats on top of a new market, which would have taken 2 years to build.

Our impression is that the back section of Granville Arcade really became empty mainly through large rent increases around the early 2000s under the previous owner, and then as a result of the insecurity that was created for tenants prior to the redevelopment plans.

As a result of the recession (as well maybe as the local campaign to stop the redevelopment), LAP have put their redevelopment plans on hold. Their website indicates they are now pursuing new ways to make profit from the market.

Since December last year, many traders have been facing large rent increases of between 25% - 50%. The Graffiti / Hip Hop shop in Market Row for example shut down because of their increase. Others are waiting to see if the landlords will negotiate.

The new shops in Granville are run by great people who seem committed to wanting the market to work for everyone. The spacemaker initiative (which is paid for by LAP with (i believe) some in kind officer support etc from the council) to bring many of them in on a rent free period is run by well intentioned people who have got most of what they want to do right. But the situation is complex.

I think it is worth considering the fact that Brixton is as diverse economically as it is culturally, and increases in rent will drive out shops geared to people on low incomes from shopping there, prevent them from setting up their own businesses (which is one of the massive traditional benefits of markets) and in the end, could drive out even the new traders too - to make way for more upmarket shops etc.

You could see this as excessively negative and think that Brixton Market is too big to work out that way, it will find a natural balance. I'm personally less happy to leave it to market forces / chance.

Rushy said:

Do you mean the pizza restaurant called Franco Manca?

The same one which was a pizza restaurant called Ecco for about 15 years before that? The one where you can buy a woodfired pizza and homemade lemonade for little more than the price of a KFC Zinger meal? The one that buys loads of its salad veg and other ingredients from the grocers next door? Yeah - definitely get rid of that.

Small independent shops, eh! - who on earth do they think they are coming 'round our Brixton and serving good food people actually want to eat? Clogging up all that valuable space with customers when what we actually need is another Cottage Chicken, 'Sports' shoe shop and a Nail Bar. Don't they know that I've lived here longer than them? The bloody cheek of it...

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I assume you're one of the idiots standing in those massive queues? It looks like hell on earth. My ex-gf used to work there when it was Ecco's and was an awesome lil place then as far as i remember... genuine food, genuine people..

Then - it gets write ups in the Guardian lifestyle section and hey presto - a pack of tossers are blocking my way thru what was a very cool market.

I suspect the OP is also one of this place's fans. Fuck off back to cla'am i say

Thanks Ms T:

Vida Walsh is on Saltoun Road, right by Windrush Square.
Hope to see you there.
Also to add some details about the event - the tour of the market will include opportunities to hear from key figures in the market such as the Chair of the Street trader's federation...

whitedove said:

what witchcraft shop ? where is it ?

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Down the brix rd end of the market - its cool. You can spend ages looking thru all their weird candles n stuff... Altho whether they work or not, hmmmm... dunno. im burning one now, so lets if i wake up a millionaire

fbm said:

Thanks Ms T:

Vida Walsh is on Saltoun Road, right by Windrush Square.
Hope to see you there.
Also to add some details about the event - the tour of the market will include opportunities to hear from key figures in the market such as the Chair of the Street trader's federation...

Click to expand...

I've just checked your site - seriously - what are your motives here? What needs improving? Do you want more joints like Francos and Rosies? Is that what you mean by 'developing'?

gabi said:

Down the brix rd end of the market - its cool. You can spend ages looking thru all their weird candles n stuff... Altho whether they work or not, hmmmm... dunno. im burning one now, so lets if i wake up a millionaire

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The stuff I got there did no fucking good at all.

gabi said:

I assume you're one of the idiots standing in those massive queues? It looks like hell on earth. My ex-gf used to work there when it was Ecco's and was an awesome lil place then as far as i remember... genuine food, genuine people..

Then - it gets write ups in the Guardian lifestyle section and hey presto - a pack of tossers are blocking my way thru what was a very cool market.

I suspect the OP is also one of this place's fans. Fuck off back to cla'am i say

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yeah where have all the genuine people gone?

Judgemental twat.