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Government data snooping - what are they actually proposing?

Beanburger

Deep Fried
I can't find any real details about how the government intends to farm data. Take email, for example. How the hell is this data gonna be gathered? If people are using webmail, will webmail providers be expected to provide the data? And if so, wouldn't that depend on people using their real names? Sure, there's an audit trail back from the IP of the webmail user, but how would that work in practice? There's no way it could be automated, since the process would have no way of knowing that a real name hadn't been used. That would only be flagged if someone came under investigation.

And what about other mail providers? What if you use, for example, a small web hosting company for email provision? Will tiny outfits be expected to log and retain all their SMTP server traffic?

I'm baffled by how the hell any of this could work effectively in the real world. Am I missing something? :confused:
 
Apparently they do not want the contents of the message, just the who is it from and who is it to information.
 
It's a proposal made by someone with fuck all technical knowledge. It will cost an absolute bomb to do (that's probably woken up GCHQ), totally unworkable and those that have something to hide will still be able to do with relative ease.
 
I thought they wanted everything - every data, every message.

Or is that the Americans?
 
Surely it is a rekindling of the RIPA legistlation where National and Local Government basically wants to know everything we do online ..
 
Last I heard they're making it a condition of receiving unemployment benefits to spend 5 hours a week reading emails that people have sent and making a note of the juicy ones
 
Government have never before permitted us a means of communication that they were unable to eavesdrop on.

Back when GSM phones were developed we were given lower levels of encryption so that Gov could listen in. The landline phone, easy to tap. etc ..

What is different now, is that they want to listen in en masse, all of us all of the time!
 
Surely it would have to be The Men? I doubt The Man has enough time of his hands to read the 2 million emails sent every SECOND in the UK (that's 3 BILLION per day...!)

Actually it will NEVER be possible to read every email sent in this country, no matter what the technology because at some point down the line a human will have to make some action and there are simply not enough humans on the planet to undertake such a task...
 
Actually it will NEVER be possible to read every email sent in this country, no matter what the technology because at some point down the line a human will have to make some action and there are simply not enough humans on the planet to undertake such a task...

Apply various automated filters and put a small number with the highest potential risk in front of human operators.

Not rocket science, but pattern matching and data mining.
 
There's no proposal to store the contents of messages, only records of who contacted who and when.

It's unworkable, for the reasons Boris gave. Just more fantasy control-freakery.
 
This will guarantee employment for millions of people. In the future 80% of the population will be employed checking on the business of the whole population.

I suppose an alternative would be to set up a contract with a multi-national computer company to devise and implement another one of those vastly expensive dedicated computer systems that doesn't work properly and runs over budget by 400%.

The increase in taxes required to pay for this whole operation will also create more work for number crunchers.


probably
 
I know no-one will take the slightest fucking notice of this (except to deny that it is accurate and is me acting as a "shill" :rolleyes:) but if you really want to know what is being proposed and why / how it is useful ...

1. It is not the keeping of content (as has been noted)
2. It is keeping records of connection / activity (e.g. numbers called, internet sites connected, etc.). Most (but not all) of this is done already as part of service providers billing / admin / technical systems.
3. The stuff is currently only held for as long as needed for the service providers purposes. This is usually a matter of weeks or a couple of months at most (but it varies between data category and service provider).
4. The suggestion is that service providers be required to keep it for 12 months.
5. The original plan, that it would all be supplied to a central data storage dump, has been binned (too expensive, control passes to law enforcement entirely). It is now to be kept by service providers and they will be reimbursed for the cost (of storage and of processing applications for access).
6. There is no change to how it will be accessed / used.
7. It will NOT be routinely trawled or analysed.
8. Access will be by specific application under the relevant DPA, RIPA or other authorisation process. It will be targetted (i.e. the application will ask for specific data on a specific name, phone number, IP address or whatever).
9. That is the case now - the applications are made for, and granted to, access to data held for the service providers own purposes whilst it exists.
10. Effectively all that this proposed change does is extend the time that it is there to be accessed.
11. There is nothing new about the access of law enforcement to data held for other purposes to assist in criminal enquiries - it has always happened (e.g. access to bank account details in fraud cases) and is a core part of the evidence gathering process.
12. It is extremely valuable evidence (in terms of both it's evidential value and in terms of how it shortcuts other lengthy alternative investigative methods (such as weeks and weeks of convential and / or technical surveillance). It is useful in putting suspects in particular places at particular times and in revealing links with associates, etc.
13. In complex enquiries (and terrorist cases are a very high-profile example, but by no means the only one) it is frequently some weeks or months before a suspect is identified and so a targetted request for the data can be made - at present it is very common for the data to already have been destroyed by the time it's relevance is recognised.
14. There is no reason at all why it should not work - it works now (though there is a cost implication) and all that would be needed was additional storage capacity (thus more cost implication) - but no more complexity so no reason to think it wouldn't work.

There are basically three questions you should ask yourself:

a. Is it right that law enforcement should be able to access data held by other organisations in the investigation of specific crimes? (If you answer no to this then you should think carefully about how exactly you expect the police to be able to investigate anything!).
b. If so, is it right to ask that data holders keep the data they have for non-law enforcement purposes for longer than they otherwise would so that it is available to enquiries when it's relevance is identified later?
c. If so, for what period? Is 12 months right? Would 6 months be enough? Should it be 3 years? (As an investigator I would say that it would be a very exceptional case which needed stuff going back more than 3 years ... but I think there will still be some significant number of cases where the need is only identified more than 12 months later. I would say 12 months is a good start ... but some empirical evidence of the number of / nature of cases where it was not enough should be gathered to see if an extension is needed in future).
 
I know no-one will take the slightest fucking notice of this (except to deny that it is accurate and is me acting as a "shill" :rolleyes:) but if you really want to know what is being proposed and why / how it is useful ...
I'm still unclear. Form what I can see, you're basically talking about the retention of records of simple port 80 requests. That doesn't do anything to explain how they'll record, for example, who people have been talking to on Facebook. Or who they've been emailing through Gmail. I assume they'd require some form of deep packet inspection pulling data out of live IP streams and parsing that into simple database logs. But I'm still struggling to see how that would work. Where would such servers even sit? Where would you intercept the data?
 
Detective Boy fails to mention the fact that councils use these sort of powers (RIPA)for something as trivial as spying on parents who want to send their kids to a better school....
he obviously has more trust in our elected megalomaniacs than me
 
Detective Boy fails to mention the fact that councils use these sort of powers (RIPA)for something as trivial as spying on parents who want to send their kids to a better school....
he obviously has more trust in our elected megalomaniacs than me
Not being funny, but I'm sure there's plenty of discussions around the politics of this. I don't agree with it any more that you do. But I started this thread to try and get an idea of how the technology would work, so any chance we can stick to that?
 
Not being funny, but I'm sure there's plenty of discussions around the politics of this. I don't agree with it any more that you do. But I started this thread to try and get an idea of how the technology would work, so any chance we can stick to that?

well HE is telling you how it would work, but it seemed to be thru rose tinted specs so i thought i'd add my bit...
 
14. There is no reason at all why it should not work - it works now (though there is a cost implication) and all that would be needed was additional storage capacity (thus more cost implication) - but no more complexity so no reason to think it wouldn't work.
So you don't know the first thing about what they're proposing. Quelle surprise.

:facepalm:
 
well HE is telling you how it would work, but it seemed to be thru rose tinted specs so i thought i'd add my bit...
Problem is, the ISPs say it is not technically possible at the moment and may never be technically possible. So when d-b breezes in and says it's no more difficult than what it already done now, you know there's no point listening to a word he says. He hasn't got a clue.
 
Problem is, the ISPs say it is not technically possible at the moment and may never be technically possible. So when d-b breezes in and says it's no more difficult than what it already done now, you know there's no point listening to a word he says. He hasn't got a clue.

he comes out with a lot of pro establishment propaganda, be interesting to know what job he does ???
 
2. It is keeping records of connection / activity (e.g. numbers called, internet sites connected, etc.). Most (but not all) of this is done already as part of service providers billing / admin / technical systems.
My ISP already keeps a record of what sites I visit for 12 months? You sure of that?
7. It will NOT be routinely trawled or analysed.

You have guarantees on this? No chance of function creep?

8. Access will be by specific application under the relevant DPA, RIPA or other authorisation process. It will be targeted (i.e. the application will ask for specific data on a specific name, phone number, IP address or whatever).

You have guarantees on this? No chance of function creep?

12. It is extremely valuable evidence (in terms of both it's evidential value and in terms of how it shortcuts other lengthy alternative investigative methods (such as weeks and weeks of convential and / or technical surveillance). It is useful in putting suspects in particular places at particular times and in revealing links with associates, etc.

I take it you've never heard of Tor or the myriad of anonymous browsing methods. Nether has Joe public but you can bet your arse Jonny Jihad has

13. In complex enquiries (and terrorist cases are a very high-profile example, but by no means the only one) it is frequently some weeks or months before a suspect is identified and so a targetted request for the data can be made - at present it is very common for the data to already have been destroyed by the time it's relevance is recognised.

I thought my ISP was already keeping that data?

14. There is no reason at all why it should not work - it works now (though there is a cost implication) and all that would be needed was additional storage capacity (thus more cost implication) - but no more complexity so no reason to think it wouldn't work.

Please tell me how its going to work then. T-Mobile have already said its 'Technically Impossible' but if you know more about it than them pray tell. As I understand it the only way this would work for actually fighting crime would be if you banned encryption
 
he comes out with a lot of pro establishment propaganda, be interesting to know what job he does ???
Ex-copper with a law degree, still working with the cops AFAIK.

He's not a shill, not knowingly anyway. It's just a combination of extreme naivety and extreme arrogance, IMO. A "useful idiot".
 
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