Immigration BLAH BLAH BLAH

Serious question why do certain posters obsessively post about this? What's the point, it's literally the same circular arguments over and over and over and no-one ever changes their view point on it. What's the point, surely there's something better to do?

cockneyrebel said:

Serious question why do certain posters obsessively post about this? What's the point, it's literally the same circular arguments over and over and over and no-one ever changes their view point on it. What's the point, surely there's something better to do?

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because we are fascinated by how people who claim to be pro working class end up supportting the bosses and so liberal!!

seriously though it is the key to where the left have gone wrong today ..

their inability to take the compliants of ordinary people seriously ( without shouting racist) ,

their inability to analyse what the bosses/ capitalists are doing ( failing to see where immigration fits into the drive for profits)

and their inability to be able to have strategies that appeal to ordinay people and remain progressive

durruti02 said:

seriously though it is the key to where the left have gone wrong today ..

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It's funny how many people know exactly where the left have gone wrong. Yet they seem to have so little influence themselves. If only people would listen to them!

durruti02 said:

seriously though it is the key to where the left have gone wrong today ..

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Does the left getting 'it' wrong imply the right have got it er right?

Kid_Eternity said:

Does the left getting 'it' wrong imply the right have got it er right?

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in terms of rabble rousing .. yes ..
in terms of finding that itch .. yes .

. and this is NOT good!!! .. the left should be capable of doing so too .. with class politics NOT race politics .. they are not yet

because we are fascinated by how people who claim to be pro working class end up supportting the bosses and so liberal!!

seriously though it is the key to where the left have gone wrong today ..

their inability to take the compliants of ordinary people seriously ( without shouting racist) ,

their inability to analyse what the bosses/ capitalists are doing ( failing to see where immigration fits into the drive for profits)

and their inability to be able to have strategies that appeal to ordinay people and remain progressive

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I'm just off out but just to say you've proved my point exactly.

You're just repeating the same points over and over and over and over....on thread after thread after thread. What's the point. No-one changes their minds in these debates. Surely you've got something better to do.

durruti02 said:

because we are fascinated by how people who claim to be pro working class end up supportting the bosses and so liberal!!

seriously though it is the key to where the left have gone wrong today ..

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So you're a nationalist and a socialist. nice combo

I think you've made your point - enjoy your christmas however you do it.

You've probably also made yourself moderately unpopular, but I guess they'll get over it.

Apologies for making a point in a bit of a stupid way but it is xmas.

Cheers and hope you enjoy your xmas as well! Now I'm off down the pub.

But even there I can't get away from it, the barman's polish......run for the hills

cockneyrebel said:

Serious question why do certain posters obsessively post about this?

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Because they have found a 'right on' cause for their latent xenophobia.

You're right - most of the threads on the front page of this forum are about immigration. It's pathetic. I could list a dozen issues that matter in Britain today and immigration ain't on the list. Why waste time debating with those tossers who want to keep banging on about immigration ? Let's start some new threads and leave them talking to themselves.

Okay CR, you've bumped up all the threads on immigration and you've made your point

All I will say is that there is a difference between being anti-immigrant and questioning the level and purpose of immigration. Anyone who is anti-immigrant richly deserves the grief they get. But I think there is a legtimate debate to be had about the purposes of immigration when the leading figures in the CBI call for a more relaxed approach. Should the alarm bells not be ringing at this point?

I think that's enough bumping, mind. We don't really want to have all that shit on the first page of ukpol do we?

durruti02 said:

because we are fascinated by how people who claim to be pro working class end up supportting the bosses and so liberal!!

seriously though it is the key to where the left have gone wrong today ..

their inability to take the compliants of ordinary people seriously ( without shouting racist) ,

their inability to analyse what the bosses/ capitalists are doing ( failing to see where immigration fits into the drive for profits)

and their inability to be able to have strategies that appeal to ordinay people and remain progressive

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If immigrants are not working class ordinary people, what are they?

cockneyrebel said:

You're just repeating the same points over and over and over and over....on thread after thread after thread. What's the point. No-one changes their minds in these debates. No-one changes their minds in these debates

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Is that a reason not to have them though? And people do often develop different viewpoints, over time. Every discussion can have an effect on that.

CR in the past year i have started threads on

unemployment in london only 41 views and only 10 replies .. clearly of little interest
harmonsworth only 5 views!! ditto above
support for Burbery workers 103 views .. 2 replies ! ditto above
support for ISS workers against goldman sacks ..2 replies ..only 30 views
a co ordiantion meeting in hackney
the anti olympic web site
defending Queens market in green st .. NO replies and only 17 views
a theoretical thing on power/control
the swp/anti war movemnet and holcaust deniers
inside track and the right to buy scandal
ocap ..no replies
olympics stuff
the bolkestein directive ..
the pathfinder homes communities destruction project
caradoc evans and the scarlets

CR ... it is you and the other liberals that have the problem

and TBH you prove my allegations .. that immigration IS the one topic that is off limits .. the amount of other shite that is repeated over and over on urban .. where is you objections and repeat posting for those??

and p.s. there are plenty of people who have changed their opinions as a result of these threads .. sadly not you , but I have

a year and a bit ago i was not sure about immigration controls .. i am now certain i am 100% against them .. see debate does work .. you should try engaging instead of writing off what you do not understand

and lets look at CRs contributions

Immigration BLAH BLAH BLAH
UAF vs UAF!! ( 1 2 3 4 5)
BNP rally in Dagenham ( 1 2)
Defend Adult Education ( 1 2)
Free on-line texts
Free on-line text messages
mk12 threatens workers movement with violence
Permanent Revolution ( 1 2 3 4)
St Petersburg - Advice ASAP!!
How risky is it to use a sunbed?
Poverty under Labour
Galloway and homophobia
NUJ backs scrapping immigration controls
A Trotskyite ate my hamster
Workers Power in the Guardian
Snake 'befriends' snack hamster
Fighting the Asylum and Immigration Acts
Fighting the Asylum and Immigration Acts
Last stop for the Routemaster ( 1 2 3 4)
Cutbacks and more cutbacks..... ( 1 2)
BNP endorses CPB (M-L)!
Socialist/Anarchist Songs ( 1 2 3 4)
Socialism 2005 ( 1 2 3 4 5)
Why I hate 'Little Britain' ( 1 2 3 4)

god CR ..now i see it .. you really are a better man than i

how an i join permanent revolution? .. i read about it in the guardian

CR ... it is you and the other liberals that have the problem

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I think your missing my point in your obsession with the whole liberal issue (actually I've got no time for the liberal elite or the guardian whatsoever, can't stand the paper).

I'm saying that what's the point of having the same circular debate over and over and over, it was nothing personal towards you (you just happened to have started most of the threads I bumped, but not all of them). It achieves nothing and surely there is something better to do, that was my point. But if you wanna go round and round in circles on the same ground, feel free.

And as it goes I would say the same thing about other stuff. There was at one time (although I think it's calmed down a lot), endless repetitive threads about the SWP/RESPECT/Galloway. It just seems to me that far from immigration being off limits as a topic it dominated the p&p forum.

and p.s. there are plenty of people who have changed their opinions as a result of these threads .. sadly not you , but I have

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Really, not from my reading, it just reads as the same people making the same points on both sides. But I'll take your word for it.

But if you're now 100% against immigration controls then basically going on about the negatives of immigration is almost pointless. If you don't have practical suggestions, then it would be about as good as saying "capitalism is bad, lets get rid of it".

Well done durrutt for the most interesting threads started on this obscure discussion board and who gives a fuck anyway.

ditto CR.

############ said:

I'm saying that what's the point of having the same circular debate over and over and over, it was nothing personal towards you (you just happened to have started most of the threads I bumped, but not all of them). It achieves nothing and surely there is something better to do, that was my point. But if you wanna go round and round in circles on the same ground, feel free.

.

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But isnt there an element of that in every important arguement?

cunts/

But isnt there an element of that in every important arguement?

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There is, but these threads seem so similar and so circular that I just think what's the point. But anyway, if you think there is, fair enough.

Who are you? nice way to introduce yourself btw, returning poster maybe?

You're right - most of the threads on the front page of this forum are about immigration. It's pathetic. I could list a dozen issues that matter in Britain today and immigration ain't on the list. Why waste time debating with those tossers who want to keep banging on about immigration ? Let's start some new threads and leave them talking to themselves.

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cockneyrebel said:

There is, but these threads seem so similar and so circular that I just think what's the point. But anyway, if you think there is, fair enough.

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fair play CR .. dennis R has made the same point as you ..

honestly mate i know it is a negative campaign/thing .. in the real world i do much positive stuff .. but i honestly think that in the country this is an absolutely KEY issue where the left have fkd up .. and even though people like exscolcate, treelover, mk, sub cas, portman etc etc ( and most of the renegades in the bar with no name like siihi, rnb!) agreed , the main left in this country .. the swp .. and its reps on here still have their head in the sand .. i hope you like me if you felt an issue was imporant enough woudl not let it go .. it is going around and round but every now an again new examples come up that are relevent to the debate ..

there is an issue how relevent/read U75 is though!! not sure about that!!

copliker said:

If immigrants are not working class ordinary people, what are they?

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it is not an issue over whether they are they same as you and me .. which of course they are .. it is an issue of how best to build resistance to the system that dehumanises us all

voiceofreason said:

You're right - most of the threads on the front page of this forum are about immigration. It's pathetic. I could list a dozen issues that matter in Britain today and immigration ain't on the list. Why waste time debating with those tossers who want to keep banging on about immigration ? Let's start some new threads and leave them talking to themselves.

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Yup, I had a look for the first time in months yesterday and couldn't believe it. Immigration isn't even an issue - wages, jobs and allocation of resources is, and immigrants are scapegoated for this. To see anarchists/socialists banging on about it incessantly is pretty appalling. Saying immigration itself has anything to do with the causes of these problems is utterly stupid; akin to saying women entering the workforce brought down wages - which is true but irrelevant, since the working class response is always organise together across races, nationalities, genders and borders to fight for the same conditions and services for all. The IWW realised this in the US 100 years ago with much bigger immigration, but they didn't see the need to make immigration the issue when in fact the bosses's poor wages and the state's anti-working class policies are the issue.

I've said this before on some of these threads ages ago, but it looks like some people have their pet topic so i'll let them carry on; it's just a big shame their playing up to a nationalist, scapegoating, pro-bosses argument by focussing on immigration rather than the actual issues.

DrRingDing said:

Because they have found a 'right on' cause for their latent xenophobia.

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because it's a big issue for a lot of people in this country. I think it's something that should be debated.

icepick said:

Yup, I had a look for the first time in months yesterday and couldn't believe it. Immigration isn't even an issue - wages, jobs and allocation of resources is, and immigrants are scapegoated for this. To see anarchists/socialists banging on about it incessantly is pretty appalling. Saying immigration itself has anything to do with the causes of these problems is utterly stupid; akin to saying women entering the workforce brought down wages - which is true but irrelevant, since the working class response is always organise together across races, nationalities, genders and borders to fight for the same conditions and services for all. The IWW realised this in the US 100 years ago with much bigger immigration, but they didn't see the need to make immigration the issue when in fact the bosses's poor wages and the state's anti-working class policies are the issue.

I've said this before on some of these threads ages ago, but it looks like some people have their pet topic so i'll let them carry on; it's just a big shame their playing up to a nationalist, scapegoating, pro-bosses argument by focussing on immigration rather than the actual issues.

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icepick that is an amazing and daft claim that immigration is irrelevent and diuscussing it should be essentially off limits OF COURSE the solutions you propse are essentially right but do you not smell a rat when the left and anarchists argue for a position that is the same as the NEO LIBS???..

do you honestly think i am nieve as to the workings of capitalism?? sorry mate i think it is you and the others who refuse to try to understand neo liberalism ( even though you embrace precarity .. which is relient on immigration !!!) who are nieve

immigration in the last few years is the biggest on the last few hundred years .. as revolutionaries we need to ask ourselves why and how

it has happenned with fairly strict border controls .. 10/ 20 years ago @s and the left were campigning against UKInc.'s 'closed borders'. it is therefore legitimate to ask how this has happenned

the EU expansion in this has been crucial .. so it is legitimate to ask how and why this happenned .. it is clear one of the key reasons was to provide cheap labour both in situ and mobile

this influx of cheap labour has been with the full and active support of the bosses. it is therfore legitimate to revisit our position/ our ideas on the process

it is clear that there has been a material effect on wages .. both slowing the total growth and at the bottom end , depressing them .. ( of course this is capitalism .. but it is imperative to acknowledge the WHOLE process before we can honestly and legitimately comment on it

it is clear that the rise of the BNP has relied on 2 things .. the govts war for oil using winding up anti muslim prejudice .. and this increase in immigration .. to just deny there is an issue is both wrong .. and has been on the street disasterous

the key issues are though as you correctly say .. wages allocation of resources etc etc BUT BUT BUT how on earth can you discuss wages without discussing labour supply??? it is NOT possible ..

P>S> cockney rebel bumped all the threads .. that is why they were all up.. a week or so ago there was only one or two .. ( p.s i use capitals to emphasis NOT shout !:-D)

icepick: whether you like it or not, asylum and immigration is definitely one of the most important issues for people in this country. Just because you don't think it is doesn't mean it's not.