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Bed Goldacre savaged for his own 'bad science'!

Jazzz

Jazzz

the truth don't care
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Ben Goldacre savaged for his own 'bad science'!

Many around here will already know what I think of Ben Goldacre and his insufferably smug 'bad science' column, especially when talking about vaccines (I'd previously had a letter published about some of his mumps nonsense).

Anyway, it looks like he bit off far more than he could chew when he attempted, on the 2nd November, to ridicule the Daily Mail's Melanie Philips (who had written this article)...

"The problem is that Phillips seems to misunderstand basic epidemiology... and if you don't get it then you have only two choices: you can either learn to interpret data yourself and come to your own informed conclusions; or you decide who to trust." "The MMR sceptic who just doesn't understand science".

This exceptional piece of patronisation from someone completely in thrall to the vaccine paradigm brought in a flurry of letters defending Melanie and the Guardian, and subsequently the Guardian has printed a riposte from Melanie herself...

"On the contrary, it is Goldacre who is ignoring the evidence, and his errors go to the essence of the MMR controversy. Like the government, Goldacre believes clinical findings are trumped by epidemiology, which he says is "evidence-based" medicine. But the attempt to refute Wakefield by epidemiology is a category confusion. Epidemiology looks at patterns of disease in a population. It cannot prove or disprove cause and effect in individual patients." The case against me boils down to smear and evasion


hoo boy! :D
 
Jazzz said:
"On the contrary, it is Goldacre who is ignoring the evidence, and his errors go to the essence of the MMR controversy. Like the government, Goldacre believes clinical findings are trumped by epidemiology, which he says is "evidence-based" medicine. But the attempt to refute Wakefield by epidemiology is a category confusion. Epidemiology looks at patterns of disease in a population. It cannot prove or disprove cause and effect in individual patients." The case against me boils down to smear and evasion


hoo boy! :D
Click to expand...
Jazzz, you fucking muppet. Nothing can "prove or disprove cause and effect in individual patients", which is why "[e]pidemiology looks at patterns of disease in a population" - that's the only possible way of showing correlation. Of course in your wacky universe, science is not bound by the man's oppressive use of 'impossibility'.
 
To be honest Jazzz, I couldn't really care what any of your links say.

You have started several utterly shite-filled threads in the last few days so I am not going to take anything you post seriously ever again.

You have brought it on yourself with your utter contempt for people who post here and your total dishonesty.
 
Without wanting to get into the MMR/autism debate but to add to the thread, this is beautiful from the Melanie Philips article.

"it [the cochrane report] also said the evidence it looked at did not support any association between MMR and autism. But that does not mean it said the vaccine was safe. It was rather that it didn’t find anything to suggest that it was not. "

In the same way that it didn't find evidence to dispute that pink unicorns are the cause of autism.
 
gurrier said:
Jazzz, you fucking muppet. Nothing can "prove or disprove cause and effect in individual patients", which is why "[e]pidemiology looks at patterns of disease in a population" - that's the only possible way of showing correlation. Of course in your wacky universe, science is not bound by the man's oppressive use of 'impossibility'.
Click to expand...
Interesting gurrier, that you direct your comment at me, when I present it as the comments of Melanie Philips; yet you ignore her and the doctors who backed her on the letters page. Are they 'fucking muppets' too? :rolleyes:

Firstly, I was simply selecting snippets from the exchange - I suggest you read the whole articles to get more of their flavour.

Secondly, you are wrong to take Goldacre's side - both in that the epidemiology looked at does little to disprove Wakefield's concerns (again, read the links). Also, you are utterly wrong in the suggesting that epidemiology is 'the only possible way of showing correlation'. Have you never heard of trials with control groups?
 
TeeJay said:
To be honest Jazzz, I couldn't really care what any of your links say.

You have started several utterly shite-filled threads in the last few days so I am not going to take anything you post seriously ever again.

You have brought it on yourself with your utter contempt for people who post here and your total dishonesty.
Click to expand...
You are more than welcome to ignore my threads TeeJay, you've done little but insult them, ever, however I resent your slur of 'dishonesty' which is just bang out of order.
 
Unfortunatly there is a lot of bad sceince on both sides of the debate and proving something 100% is not what science does .
 
toe

I was thinking about this the other day so Ill ask, I thought the other charge was that this doctor made up the claims to sell drugs and it less so about safety of the the mmr vacine
 
Jazzz said:
hoo boy! :D
Click to expand...
“Savaging”, the hyperbole you love so much Jazzz. And the “flurry” of letters includes the usual suspects from that ‘Whale’ site that constitutes a large proportion of your ‘research’.

Also this is *particularly* rich of you:
Jazzz said:
Firstly, I was simply selecting snippets from the exchange - I suggest you read the whole articles to get more of their flavour.
Click to expand...
In light of the fact that you have an excellent track record of piss poor research and the inability to read articles yourself, including stuff you post up yourself. A classic recent example is this

Anyway, with regards to the “savaging”, I’ve been following this and it appears that both parties are being quite daft. Philips with the complete load of tosh she spouts as highlighted by axon above and Goldacre with his schoolyard smearing. Is there something in the Penta water of late?
 
I thought that it was the lizard inspired remotecontrol 9/11 planes that were responsible for the alleged vaccine damaged.

Jazzz, I remember growing up with people getting scarlet fever and stuff like that and have seen the final vanquishment of smallpox so I take your vaccine paranoia with a shovel load of salt.
 
Jazzz said:
.......I present it as the comments of Melanie Philips; yet you ignore her and the doctors who backed her on the letters page. Are they 'fucking muppets' too? .......
Click to expand...
Don't know about the Doctor, but in the case of the dear Melanie; a fucking muppet with knobs on. :D

Have you never come across her biggotted crap before? :confused:
 
I was going to say earlier but got waylaid, that whatever the facts on vaccines - and as Jazz knows I take the opposite view to him - any argument that falls back on the ramblings of a second rate right wing journalist like Melanie Phillips is getting a little desperate.
 
Jazzz said:
Interesting gurrier, that you direct your comment at me, when I present it as the comments of Melanie Philips; yet you ignore her and the doctors who backed her on the letters page. Are they 'fucking muppets' too? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I was calling you a muppet for posting up the very passage which disproves your point. By arguing against epidemiology from the point of view of 'provability of individual cases' she simply proves that she doesn't have a fucking clue how science works.

Jazzz said:
Firstly, I was simply selecting snippets from the exchange - I suggest you read the whole articles to get more of their flavour.
Click to expand...
No thanks, I've seen quite enough to safely ignore anything that particular muppet says in future thanks.

Jazzz said:
Secondly, you are wrong to take Goldacre's side - both in that the epidemiology looked at does little to disprove Wakefield's concerns (again, read the links). Also, you are utterly wrong in the suggesting that epidemiology is 'the only possible way of showing correlation'. Have you never heard of trials with control groups?
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to imply that epidemiology is the only possible way of showing correlation, but that looking at a large number of individuals is, whether that be in large randomised and normalised trials or by using statistical analysis and sophisticated models a la epidemiology. In the case of vaccines, of course, there is not much point in using control groups as we know that as long as about 95% of people are vaccinated, it doesn't really matter which individuals are.

Do you every use the squishy thing behind your eyes?
 
you've never forgiven bad science for ridiculing your special magic water a few years back have you jazzz?
 
bluestreak said:
you've never forgiven bad science for ridiculing your special magic water a few years back have you jazzz?
Click to expand...

What an arrogant arse that Goldacre fellow is eh. Having the temerity to suggest that folk buying 'extra-pure' and 'ultra hydrating' water at premium water were being suckered. How irresponsible eh...

:mad: ;)
 
Melanie Philips is a deeply nasty, swivel-eyed, ranting reactionary bigotted twat, erm... imho obviously.
 
KeyboardJockey said:
I thought that it was the lizard inspired remotecontrol 9/11 planes that were responsible for the alleged vaccine damaged.

Jazzz, I remember growing up with people getting scarlet fever and stuff like that and have seen the final vanquishment of smallpox so I take your vaccine paranoia with a shovel load of salt.
Click to expand...
err, there was never a vaccine for scarlet fever.
 
MysteryGuest said:
Melanie Philips is a deeply nasty, swivel-eyed, ranting reactionary bigotted twat, erm... imho obviously.
Click to expand...
No, that's been proved beyond doubt in many peer-reviewed papers, published in major scientific journals.
 
gurrier said:
I didn't mean to imply that epidemiology is the only possible way of showing correlation
Click to expand...

yet you said
"Nothing can "prove or disprove cause and effect in individual patients", which is why "[e]pidemiology looks at patterns of disease in a population" - that's the only possible way of showing correlation.
Click to expand...

You know, when I fuck up, I admit to it? :rolleyes:

Not only can you not be bothered to read the articles in question but are also talking doublespeak.
 
Jazzz said:
I present it as the comments of Melanie Philips; yet you ignore her and the doctors who backed her on the letters page. Are they 'fucking muppets' too? .......
Click to expand...

reallyoldhippy said:
Don't know about the Doctor, but in the case of the dear Melanie ; a fucking muppet with knobs on. :D

Have you never come across her biggotted crap before? :confused:
Click to expand...

I'm staying out of the core of this argument, but I'm afraid that Melanie Phillips has a very long track record of whipping up populist, 'Political Correctness Gone Mad' style, right wing, authoritarian-moralist hysteria in the Daily Mail

Interesting that Jazzz refers to her as if she's some kind of credible, objective commentator.

I know her column attacking Goldacre was in the Guardian, but she has repeatedly written far less 'reasonable' sounding stuff on the same subject in the Mail.

Interesting alliances you make Jazzz ... if you find any reputable scientist attacking Goldacre's work on MMR, then perhaps more notice may be taken.

I can only approach this from the POV of an observer of journalists, and in general, Melanie Phillips is a thoroughly dishonest one.
 
slaar said:
I was going to say earlier but got waylaid, that whatever the facts on vaccines - and as Jazzz knows I take the opposite view to him - any argument that falls back on the ramblings of a second rate right wing journalist like Melanie Phillips is getting a little desperate.
Click to expand...

:D :D :p
 
Jazzz said:
yet you said

You know, when I fuck up, I admit to it? :rolleyes:

Not only can you not be bothered to read the articles in question but are also talking doublespeak.
Click to expand...


Massive pot. Fucking huge kettle. Black hole. :D
 
bluestreak said:
you've never forgiven bad science for ridiculing your special magic water a few years back have you jazzz?
Click to expand...

tarannau said:
What an arrogant arse that Goldacre fellow is eh. Having the temerity to suggest that folk buying 'extra-pure' and 'ultra hydrating' water at premium water were being suckered. How irresponsible eh...

:mad: ;)
Click to expand...

I don't remember this on Urban, but if this is in any way true, I can easily imagine how annoying a sceptical debunker of cobblers like Goldacre must be to Jazzz ....
 
FridgeMagnet said:
oh yes he can, and he will, watch
Click to expand...

and he'd be right. smallpox hasn't been eradicated, it's a big lie. instead smallpox is dismissed as MRSA or migraines as part of the conspiracy to make westerm medicine look good.
 
MysteryGuest said:
Melanie Philips is a deeply nasty, swivel-eyed, ranting reactionary bigotted twat, erm... imho obviously.
Click to expand...

Unnecessarily quotes :p just to remind Jazz that this is the person he's relying on ...

Two responses to her in today's Guardian leters page, one from Goldacre himself :

Guardian letters said:
It is a microcosm of the difficulties in dealing with health scares that I can write 850 words on an anti-MMR diatribe by Melanie Phillips, generate 900 words of letters in return as well as an article by Phillips - all reinforcing her original misconceptions, and raising some new ones. For every unit of energy you put in, you get twice as much back, and so you can never win.

She is still amazed that a critical review of the scientific literature on MMR is critical of some of the literature it reviewed and she still thinks this is evidence of guilt or cover-up in the conclusions of the report. I criticised her for claiming that: "Wakefield's discovery of autistic enterocolitis as a completely new syndrome has now been replicated in studies around the world as a new and so far unexplained disease in patients with autism." Her response is to provide references to various speculative research findings on the bowels of people with autism. Such studies exist but few would claim that such early work constitutes wide replication of the discovery of a "new disease".

I also encourage any readers who are interested in what Phillips considers to be an appropriate source for ground-breaking, peer-reviewed scientific research to look up the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons on Google and read about this strange esoteric political organisation for themselves.

Having said all that, Melanie Phillips of the Daily Mail has misrepresented and attacked me personally: and so whatever the future may bring, I can die a rounded and happy human being.
Dr Ben Goldacre
London

Melanie Phillip's rebuttal of Ben Goldacre's criticisms bears out his main points. She claims that the Cochrane report does not say that the fears about the vaccine were based on unreliable evidence. Yes it does. You need go no further than the abstract to read "No credible evidence of an involvement of MMR with either autism or Crohn's disease was found". She goes on to say that epidemiology cannot establish a causal association, and that Goldacre is confusing epidemiology and clinical results. No, the confusion is hers. Epidemiology can produce overwhelming evidence for a causal connection. What it cannot produce is information about the mechanism of that connection. It is worth adding that clinical studies do not necessarily produce information about the causal mechanism.
David Pavett
Isleworth, Middx
Click to expand...
 
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