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Stop the War? Pull the other one..

changingman

Cyber curmudgeon
I can't find any posts about last Saturday's Stop the War demo. Did nobody go?
(I guess this post should belong under "protest/direct action", but the only visitors to that forum seem to be assorted anarchos, trots, Leninists, Stalinists, Gramsciites, SWPers, IMGers, situationists, single-issue activists, revolutionary communists, libertarian vegetarians and other ne'er-do-wells and anal obsessive-compulsive purveyors of political fantasy. No point just talking to them) .
** Later: oh, i see i've been moved..into the ghetto we go.

It was an utter waste of shoe-leather and of an otherwise pleasant afternoon. A generous estimate would say some 15,000 souls max, 99 percent of them professional demonstrators. Last time, when more than a million of us marched in 2003, hardline politicos and hobbyist protestors were overwhelmingly outnumbered by ordinary folk who normally wouldn't go anywhere near a demo. That's what made that event so significant (even though it achieved nothing). Saturday was preaching-to-the-converted time, with speaker after speaker trying to hijack the event for a succession of right-on causes, from Palestine to climate change to nuclear disarmament to not locking up or deporting avowed Muslim terrorists to free bus passes for one-legged Nicaraguan lesbians.

Why can't the organisers of these mungbeanfeasts see that roping in a daisy chain of tangentially related or totally unrelated causes celèbres only serves to 1. dilute the core message and 2. alienate hordes of potential sympathisers??

They certainly alienated me. I marched in 2003 primarily because, along with many others, I could see that rubbing salt into the wound of global Islamic fundamentalism, by invading Iraq, would only put Britain top of the list of potential terrorist targets. 7/7 proved us right. I marched last Saturday principally for the same reason, but when i got to Hyde Park I realised I was totally alone. So I turned and buggered off...

There really is no hope..
 
You didn't like the fact that other people on a demonstration brought up issues which they felt were related - like, say, peace movement issues on an anti-war march, or Palestine on a march about Western imperialism in the Middle East. Tough shit. I doubt if anyone will miss you.
 
Nigel Irritable said:
You didn't like the fact that other people on a demonstration brought up issues which they felt were related - like, say, peace movement issues on an anti-war march, or Palestine on a march about Western imperialism in the Middle East. Tough shit. I doubt if anyone will miss you.
Yeah, me and 985,000 others.
 
changingman said:
Yeah, me and 985,000 others.

You see that only makes sense if you think that the other couple of million people who have been to anti-war marches weren't on the last one because they don't like other people raising issues which are linked to the war. Are you seriously suggesting that?
 
Nigel Irritable said:
You see that only makes sense if you think that the other couple of million people who have been to anti-war marches weren't on the last one because they don't like other people raising issues which are linked to the war. Are you seriously suggesting that?
It certainly pissed me off (particularly conflating Palestinian with Iraqi issues) but the reason most people aren't marching is because they don't want our soldiers out of Iraq now they are there, it's that simple.
 
slaar said:
the reason most people aren't marching is because they don't want our soldiers out of Iraq now they are there, it's that simple.

In fact every opinion poll shows that a majority of people want "our" (whose exactly?) soldiers out of Iraq, so your "simple" answer is every bit as false as changingman's.
 
slaar said:
It certainly pissed me off (particularly conflating Palestinian with Iraqi issues) but the reason most people aren't marching is because they don't want our soldiers out of Iraq now they are there, it's that simple.

That's rubbish, the reason people aren't marching is because the meedja are not now giving the protestors any coverage before these events take place. And opinion polls seem to indicate major support for withdrawing the troops.

By the way, on an issue by issue basis, while some things are silly, the message that the Arab world feels that they have been oppressed for years is pretty important and that chasm between cultures should be addressed.

Is an invasion proof against what they feel is the case? I do not think so.
 
slaar said:
It certainly pissed me off (particularly conflating Palestinian with Iraqi issues) but the reason most people aren't marching is because they don't want our soldiers out of Iraq now they are there, it's that simple.

Hmm. Personally I think it's because not enough people got laid for having a social conscience and thus have tried to find something else to be 'interesting' about... and in doing so - get laid.

:rolleyes:
 
most people arent marching because it achieved nothing last time around, despite the fact that they were joined by 1-1,5 million others. why would this one have any effect?
 
districtline said:
most people arent marching because it achieved nothing last time around, despite the fact that they were joined by 1-1,5 million others. why would this one have any effect?

I also agree with this. I think everyone - Western or in the Middle East - feels like they have no control and their voices and political systems offer them no way to affect what these mad bastards who have power are doing.

It's incredibly damaging and creates a vacuum that threatens the concept of democracy itself. Whatever that is. I have never experienced a democracy, just an oligarchy, or perhaps a plutocracy.
 
districtline said:
most people arent marching because it achieved nothing last time around, despite the fact that they were joined by 1-1,5 million others. why would this one have any effect?

Life ain't MTV.

Too many people believe it is.

The huge numbers on that first march were not (IMO) an indication of the strength of feeling in this country but the power of the media to influence us.

It's unrealistic and unreasonable to expect things to change because of one march... these things take time and a real stomach for the fight.

Most of the rest just wanted a day off work and maybe a shag.
 
aah cheggers,If I know you were going I'd have give yis a bell.

But agreed,it was very dissapointing,but I put that down to the fact that it wasn't very well advertised to people who don't usually go to demonstrations.

How are people supposed to know it's on if no-one tells them?
 
I actually broadly agree that the multi-issue march publicity was a bad idea - more because it's ineffective marketing than because it annoys me. I think focus and clarity is important in terms of demonstrations.

The lack of numbers reflects a number of things
- perception of pointlessness/ repetition
- the media was more helpful on F15
- the war issue is much older and demands/policies need refreshing
- F15 was a moment that many participants saw as historic, not just another march

Realistically I don't think the resources and attitudes that made F15 happen will ever be available again for this issue. In fact the "success" of that day probably impeded the more vital process of building functional local anti-war groups that could do the groundwork to make more demos and keep the pressure on the government. To maintain momentum there had to a capacity for local StWCs to have regular regional anti-war demos and engage in direct action to hamper the war effort (even if only to disrupt/antagonise the government).

Consistent building of large London demos every 6 months or so was never going to be effective, or even practical.
 
Sorry. said:
Consistent building of large London demos every 6 months or so was never going to be effective, or even practical.

A fair point - how long ago do the school student strikes seem now?
 
Nigel Irritable said:
The first poster specifically excluded threads from the politics section of the board because he wanted to express his opinions in the more wiberal-friendly parts.


he doesn't actually do that - he says he realises this thread should be in P and P - "I guess this post should belong under "protest/direct action"," - but he doesn't exclude that arena from his assertion that "I can't find any posts about last Saturday's Stop the War demo"

so :p

:D
 
I would have thought it was possible to want all three simultaneously - stop the war, day of work and a shag - that would've been a result, eh?
 
Nigel Irritable said:
A fair point - how long ago do the school student strikes seem now?

and how many of us have subsequently watched what existed of local antiwar groups disintegrate into sectarian rumps of negligible use to anyone?
 
seeing as changingman seems to have started this thread and then buggered of, and it seems to be attracting the "usual suspects" I can't see any merit in it remaining in "General" - off to P&P it goes ....
 
Wolfie said:
seeing as changingman seems to have started this thread and then buggered of, and it seems to be attracting the "usual suspects" I can't see any merit in it remaining in "General" - off to P&P it goes ....

What? You lot get back in your ghetto? ;)
 
Sorry. said:
The lack of numbers reflects a number of things
- perception of pointlessness/ repetition

In some respects repetition is the point.

- the media was more helpful on F15
- the war issue is much older and demands/policies need refreshing
- F15 was a moment that many participants saw as historic, not just another march

Which is basically all down to the way the march was represented and who was chosen to represent it.

And who chooses them?

Yep. You guessed it. :rolleyes:

Realistically I don't think the resources and attitudes that made F15 happen will ever be available again for this issue. In fact the "success" of that day probably impeded the more vital process of building functional local anti-war groups that could do the groundwork to make more demos and keep the pressure on the government. To maintain momentum there had to a capacity for local StWCs to have regular regional anti-war demos and engage in direct action to hamper the war effort (even if only to disrupt/antagonise the government).

It's true - which makes you wonder if it wasn't orchestrated that way.

Yes I know it's borderline 'conspiracy theory' tm but it's sooo fucking obvious... and sooo fucking easy.

:mad:
 
Sorry. said:
Realistically I don't think the resources and attitudes that made F15 happen will ever be available again for this issue. In fact the "success" of that day probably impeded the more vital process of building functional local anti-war groups that could do the groundwork to make more demos and keep the pressure on the government. To maintain momentum there had to a capacity for local StWCs to have regular regional anti-war demos and engage in direct action to hamper the war effort (even if only to disrupt/antagonise the government).

Consistent building of large London demos every 6 months or so was never going to be effective, or even practical.

The truth is that this was always on the cards given the fact that StWC is controlled by the unholy alliance of the SWP, CPB, and MAB who are all far more interested in promoting their own agendas and excersising their own control over the movement then allowing the sort of regional and local autonomy that the creation of regional and local StWCs would entail. You could see this coming in the immediate run up to the war when the StWC all but pulled out of the school students uprisings and actively opposed efforts like the attempt to demonstrate at Fairford. I think that you could rebuild part of the movement around, say the third anniversary of the war next march, but you would have to go for a more regional approach, starting building local actions now, and allowing people to get on with it. The likeliehood is however that they will just opt for more of the same, another London demo.
 
I would have gone, but I felt it had got hijacked by lots of people who had lots of agendas many of which weren't mine. So I ddin't go. ''It/They''
( STWC) no longer broadly represents what I believe, and I can't protest behind banners for things I don't support. Not In My Name cuts both ways.

I went to 4 Stop the War things, well one was a CND Vigil outside Downing St before Iraq, pre-STW that I heard about via Women in Black, then the biggie 1m + one , the kid's one in Parliament Square and another one.

My agenda in going to all 4 was to protest about an illegal invasion that was transparently about oil and US interests, had no discernable exit plan and did nothing to help the Middle East peace process or to encourage democracy and made us a target and stirred up race/faith hatred.

I suppose some people were there to protest about all that lot - let's just call it - The War Was Wrong as a catch-all subheader - but there were a lot of pretty extreme viewpoints leaping on the T.W.W.W bandwagon and I just wasn't comfortable with that.


Find me a march that is basically saying The War Was Wrong ( in fact it is fucking immoral) and I'll go on it. And so will about 300,000 other people.
 
tollbar said:
You could see this coming in the immediate run up to the war when the StWC all but pulled out of the school students uprisings

It was worse than that, the StWC leadership risked sabotaging the strikes by arbitrarily changing the dates late on, essentially because they couldn't stomach the fact that the organisation had been done outside of their control. Not a proud moment.
 
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