"the UK is finished"
- Thread starter durruti02
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kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
LBJs basic point is sound - until you've lived in a dictatorship, or even visited such a place, there really isn't a comparison with the 'fake' democracy in Europe/US etc., which tho far from perfect is way, way better than having no chance at all, at any level, of participating in politics.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Do you think that Attlee, Bevin, Bevan et al were motivated purely by a desire to quell rebellion? I'm not that cynical. I think they were motivated at least in part by a desire to create a better world. Why not?
I think its a mistake to look at politics as the product of a small number of individuals like that. In the grand scheme of things what they personally wanted is probably not that important, the question was why they were allowed to be there doing what they did, and that's the result of forces acting on a larger scale than individual politicians.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Well their kind is long gone from mainstream politics now, and the cuntsocks who are currently in charge are doing their level best to undo all the good things that were achieved way back when
weltweit
Well-Known Member
The UK is finished?
Not by a long way though it will be tough for us ordinary people and for some richer people also who might get wiped out.
In fact it is interesting that it is an American suggesting the Uk is finished when if anything the USA if feeling the credit crunch more than the UK is.
Not by a long way though it will be tough for us ordinary people and for some richer people also who might get wiped out.
In fact it is interesting that it is an American suggesting the Uk is finished when if anything the USA if feeling the credit crunch more than the UK is.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I agree with that, but it's not just a question of being allowed. Concessions are not just given. They first need to be demanded. And in the UK, post-WW2, concessions were both demanded and given through the mechanism of democracy.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Imposed is the word.
Sure, I don't disagree in any particular. As Chomsky says, the danger for big business in democracy is that it's potentially democratic. However I think that in an environment where representative democracy is the only game in town it tends to get eroded; what motivated the ruling-class post-war was the threat of an alternative.
Send MI6 to take the greedy cock out.
When he is in Britain he could probably be charged with being a terrorist under the new laws. But then so could anyone in Britain who says anything whatsoever about anything at all. <listens for the sound of heavy boots>
If he said the same about the dollar the Americans could charge him with unamerican activities which is quite similar and goes back to the days of the Cold War.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Something that struck me the other day, looking at the previous generation of politicians – Healey, Jenkins, Foot, even Heath ffs: Where are the intellectuals in today's politics? Robin Cook was probably the last one.Well their kind is long gone from mainstream politics now, and the cuntsocks who are currently in charge are doing their level best to undo all the good things that were achieved way back when
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The word for what? The welfare state was imposed?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Peter Hain was probably a thinking man once. I doubt he even recognises a human being when he looks in the mirror now.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Holy crap, I agree with Jim Rogers:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...to-emigrate-says-investment-guru-1488629.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...to-emigrate-says-investment-guru-1488629.html
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
By whom?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Worrying isn't it? The closest any of them get to doing anything clever is coming up with sneery put downs during PMQs. Many of them are incapable of even the most basic application of logic.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
By the working class. Through every means going.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
With the consent of sections of other classes, though, with fresh memories of a depression followed by war. A large constituency existed for the message of 'from cradle to grave'.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That doesn't (if true - what else where they going to do? The doctors and other professionals opposed it, so it was in the teeth of thir oppostion rather than consent) change the point.
I don't agree that the only alternative to democracy is jackbooted authoritarian dictatorship. We need to get the bullshit and corruption out of politics. Probably a good way to do that is to devolve most of the decision making to the community and make democracy the participatory privilege it was intended to be. Central government should be apolitical; a competent and professional provider of services and guardian of Quality of Life within the national network of autonomous communities. Or summat like that. You get the basic idea anyway...
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Neither do I (although, rereading what I wrote, I can see how it looks that way), but it overstates the case to claim that the limited democracy that we do have is a total sham.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I think it does change the point. Labour were elected in 1945, not the Tories, despite the fact that the leader of the Tories was the 'great' Churchill. This could not have happened if only the working classes had voted Labour.
Compare and contrast with Italy, where the working masses voted strongly for the communists, but not quite enough for the communists to win power (and of course the US did its best to stop the communists from winning). Concessions were granted in Italy like everywhere else – it was widely recognised that it was good for business to grant workers some concessions. But nothing as comprehensive as the UK's settlement was reached. It has been eroded away in the last 30 years, but it was a real achievement imo.
I don't know about total sham, but it is clearly in desperate need of revision, cos it doesn't fucking work. That's why voter apathy is at an all time high and many people feel alienated and powerless. A bit of alienation and powerlessness may be tolerable when the system more or less works, but when the economy and fabric of the nation are falling apart because the incompetent, robbing, lying shitstains in government are corporate glove-puppets, then it's time for a change I think.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What point dies it change though? Compare votes to behaviour. Anyway, i'm off to curry club. Might meet brassciattack.
As has been said, it's not just the UK that's "finished":
See also: Dennis Meadows wins prestigious Japan Prize
link
See also: Dennis Meadows wins prestigious Japan Prize
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
The posts on these sorts of threads are getting really good lately - nice job everyone
Aren't they? P&P as a whole has been a lot more interesting of late. I only wish I could make such rational observations about a situation that makes me so incredibly angry.
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