ID Cards: The Final Countdown...
- Thread starter taffboy gwyrdd
- Start date
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
The nearest centre to me is Cardiff, a mere 150 mile stroll away. If I was required to go this far to register I'd be most upset, as it is I'm upset that I probably won't be able to get to any of the protests 
I agree with earlier posters on this thread that DA is the only sensible way to tackle this issue, but a bunch of highly visible protests could be useful in drawing people's attention to this issue that has stayed very much under the radar in recent months. With the government currently burning vast pyres of cash on a daily basis it shouldn't be too hard to convince people that another fundamentally flawed and hugely expensive state IT scheme is a bad move, even if they don't give a crap about civil liberties or any of the more fundamental arguments against all this nonsense.
I agree with earlier posters on this thread that DA is the only sensible way to tackle this issue, but a bunch of highly visible protests could be useful in drawing people's attention to this issue that has stayed very much under the radar in recent months. With the government currently burning vast pyres of cash on a daily basis it shouldn't be too hard to convince people that another fundamentally flawed and hugely expensive state IT scheme is a bad move, even if they don't give a crap about civil liberties or any of the more fundamental arguments against all this nonsense.
That's good to see, however, there are some issues:
i) this hasn't been distributed across the Sheffield NO2ID mailing list.
ii) the 'interview centre' is at Milton House - this would have made a much better target because Vulcan House is in the middle of Home Office buildings. It is relatively tucked away from public view, while Milton House is on a major road, where there will be MANY members of the public passing by. Security is also tight in and near the Home Office buildings, so harassment from the police is likely to be much worse.
"Consultation" document now available.
He knew. He was british. Not many more astute observers of the british psyche.
Your work on this is admirable mate, and i've always seen your threads on it. But i'm afraid the system and the general climate that has led the country this far towards ID cards is the real problem. Whether these cards come in or not (and they will) is not really the issue any more. The country has gone state mad, and the interference levels by both state and big business in the lives of the citizens is rampant and almost all-encompassing.
It's happened because somewhere along the line 'security' became the byword, and all the emotions it brings with it, not the least, fear. Freedom was converted into security, and now most people think that security is freedom. And wasn't that precisely one of the dictats in orwell's 1984!!
The ID cards will happen simply because most people are too deadened to care. The life of consumerism and debt and celebrity obsession and working too hard has left people very little room to argue with the state.
I liked that quote i read last year from some tory MP who said orwell's 1984 was meant to be a warning, not a template...
Well, the british public, for a variety of reasons, has not heeded the warning. The default is already in place, with or without the cards.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Sadly felafan, there is very little to disagree with in your post. We probably get what we deserve. Very depressing.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
Interesting news in the Guardian, yesterday.
Paragraph 3 is the interesting bit. If there were to be a campaign based around informing people that avoiding registering would make you immune from the £1,000 fines and visits from bailiffs (or sheriff's officers), a non registration campaign could very well grown arms and legs.
People might not be too fussed about ID cards, but if it's pointed out that being on the register in the first place comes with responsibilities to keep the information up-to-date, and that enforced by hefty measures, but that there's a way out, I'm guessing that'd have appeal.
Paragraph 3 is the interesting bit. If there were to be a campaign based around informing people that avoiding registering would make you immune from the £1,000 fines and visits from bailiffs (or sheriff's officers), a non registration campaign could very well grown arms and legs.
People might not be too fussed about ID cards, but if it's pointed out that being on the register in the first place comes with responsibilities to keep the information up-to-date, and that enforced by hefty measures, but that there's a way out, I'm guessing that'd have appeal.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
danny la rouge
If its true that they wont fine non registering people, presumbably they will go more out of their way to make it highly inconvinient not to register.
Certainly you wont get a passport renewed. We are into vile authoritarian territory here: "its voluntary but you cant leave the country unless you submit"
Student loans, likewise. Perhaps CRBs or job applications.
You are right that there appears to be an opening, and I am right that they will be compensating for it elsewhere.
If its true that they wont fine non registering people, presumbably they will go more out of their way to make it highly inconvinient not to register.
Certainly you wont get a passport renewed. We are into vile authoritarian territory here: "its voluntary but you cant leave the country unless you submit"
Student loans, likewise. Perhaps CRBs or job applications.
You are right that there appears to be an opening, and I am right that they will be compensating for it elsewhere.
Funny you mention that Fela. We sent copies of 1984, all signed with a message similar to the above to every single MP, most of which arrived on November the fith.
We upset a few of them. What was absolutely stunning was how completely and consistently out of touch they seemed:
Tom Harris
In particular - it is well worth also seeing his second cop-out here and Harris's devastating critique of those worried about their civil liberties.
Then there was Paul Flynn
And, of course Kerry McCarthy
If you read through the comments you will see how completely dismissive and ignorant these MPs are of people's concerns. They literally see no problem whatsoever.
On the same day a load of us were collared under the Terrorism Act for wandering around near Parliament in V outfits.
For anyone you know who is completely nonchalant about the whole freedom thing - you might want to show them this video - made especially for them.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Darios
Thanks for those responses. You mentioned that campaign before, by The Libertarian Party I think. You cited it as an example of the lib right being on the rise.
Its a good campaign but I wouldnt take it as much sign of a groundswell to be honest.
Its a shame UKIP got tarnished with nationalistic politics because they could really run with a libertarian ball.
My own party, The Greens could do the same.
The libdems are naturals for the cause too, as are the tories in some respects.
I dont care who opposes ID cards, if they aint racists we should all be on side.
Some of those responses demonstrate how truly disgusting and dangerous the labour party are.
Thanks for those responses. You mentioned that campaign before, by The Libertarian Party I think. You cited it as an example of the lib right being on the rise.
Its a good campaign but I wouldnt take it as much sign of a groundswell to be honest.
Its a shame UKIP got tarnished with nationalistic politics because they could really run with a libertarian ball.
My own party, The Greens could do the same.
The libdems are naturals for the cause too, as are the tories in some respects.
I dont care who opposes ID cards, if they aint racists we should all be on side.
Some of those responses demonstrate how truly disgusting and dangerous the labour party are.
There are lots of other signs too Taffboy, however to deal with this one - only 70 copies of 1984 were provided by LPUK members - the rest came from the general public. In fact we got many many more than the 646 copies required, so some MPs got a few extra. Jacqui Smith got nine copies.
It's not been helped by plenty of leftists giving them a 'BNP lite' label, which they didn't deserve. Also, we've poached a lot of their members.
I'd say at the local, and maybe national level, there is a lot of scope for collaboration between the Lib Right and the Greens. It's at an international level where things get sticky. A lot of the Lib Right (correctly IMHO) are seriously concerned about how environmental concerns are simply going to be used as an additional stick to beat us with, enabling greater power to the state (in particular the EU).
Not as a party unfortunately in either case. Both parties have their own Libertarian bunkers, yet they only pop their heads up occasionally and are quickly silenced by the remainder of the party if they're too "off message".
Seconded.
Simply unreal aren't they?
8ball
AV REFUGEES WELCOME
Aye, there needs to be some kind of coordinated efforts between all interested parties on this.
I suspect they'll prefer to engage in the usual pissing competitions, though.
My guess is that if neo-Labour were to get a workable majority at the next election then the initial database fuck-ups and IT disarray would scupper this big idea of theirs (not to mention that they'll have a lot less moolah to play with than anticipated, and people will be watching more closely where it's all going). They'd ruin a fair few lives and waste a huge amount of money before it came to that, though.
I suspect they'll prefer to engage in the usual pissing competitions, though.
My guess is that if neo-Labour were to get a workable majority at the next election then the initial database fuck-ups and IT disarray would scupper this big idea of theirs (not to mention that they'll have a lot less moolah to play with than anticipated, and people will be watching more closely where it's all going). They'd ruin a fair few lives and waste a huge amount of money before it came to that, though.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I know: a reply I got from the passport people when I wrote asking if I was already on the database said as much.
However, i was thinking over dinner (seven hours ahead of you!) that although your efforts may prove fruitless in the wider scheme of things should the cards become the norm, on a personal level they will be anything but fruitless. I think it's really important to remain faithful to yourself and your knowledge that something that is wrong should be stood up to and fought, regardless of outcome.
You can retain your own sense of right and wrong and not have any regrets! So cheer up mate! The other thing to do of course is emigrate...
From that quote was the first bit:
"People who fail to tell the authorities of a change of address or amend other key personal details within three months will face civil penalty fines of up to £1,000 a time when the national identity card scheme is up and running, according to draft Home Office regulations published yesterday."
It is exactly this sort of thing that leaves me aghast every time i read about similar stories about how the UK has turned in the last decade or so. The state poking their noses right in your face and demanding one thousand quid for not telling them you changed your address.
If i stop and actually dwell on this for more than a few seconds, it just screams INSANITY to me.
The state is almost literally pulling people's limbs these days. And probably controlling the lip movements of most of the population too. It looks so ugly from my vantage point outside of the country, and obviously to one or two of you on this thread, but the real madness is the most of the millions just can't gather enough energy to care one way or t'other.
Sorry, but the country is turning insane. And it's not doing it slowly either.
As for the next bit...
... this kind of thing is the kicker for me. Either they're out of touch, or you are mate!! What i mean is, how many british citizens feel your way, and how many better reflect the MPs' reactions to your 'presents'??
Self-delusion is worthy of investigation. It will lead to answers about the dramatic decline of freedom in the country, and the equally dramatic decline of anybody who cares about it.
But there again, they've been brainwashed into thinking that security is the best thing since white sliced bread.
I'm not sure i can bring myself to read their comments, but i s'pose i will...
This is a good question. Unfortunately it is next to impossible to answer given how cosy the relationship tends to be between the media and government. It's not like dissenting opinions are represented.
They can - for example - write off the comments on their own blogs as just 'Libertarian types' and their friends. However, when you look at things like 'Comment is Free', on the Guardian website it is worth taking note how much flack these people take. Articles written by Gordon Brown for example sometimes attract hundreds of comments, with 90%+ of them giving him a verbal kicking, and they appear to come from across the political spectrum. The next step of course is to write these people off as unrepresentative, because they're commenting via the internet....
Darios, i read your link to tom harris, and i'm afraid that's enough for me! Mind you, it was quite heartening to read the comments by people in reply to the madman. One of those comments referred to this tom harris man as one of the more reasonable labour MPs.
Oh dear!!
Oh dear!!
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
feal fan
I think people are well capabable and versed in holding contradictory ideas in their head (the definition of doublethink)
In the civil liberties context, people deride the "nanny state" and busybody social workers etc. but then clamour for any old draconian crap brought in to ostensibly deal with terrorists that not only kill tiny %s of people but often turn out to have secret service backing and connections.
How many people will tell you that politicians are all full of shit and aint to be trusted before going on to do exactly that and call critics of the government paranoid.
Whether people proper kick off at the full intro of ID cards remains to be seen. For the meantime the states goal will be to get their foot in the door with minimum fuss.
I think people are well capabable and versed in holding contradictory ideas in their head (the definition of doublethink)
In the civil liberties context, people deride the "nanny state" and busybody social workers etc. but then clamour for any old draconian crap brought in to ostensibly deal with terrorists that not only kill tiny %s of people but often turn out to have secret service backing and connections.
How many people will tell you that politicians are all full of shit and aint to be trusted before going on to do exactly that and call critics of the government paranoid.
Whether people proper kick off at the full intro of ID cards remains to be seen. For the meantime the states goal will be to get their foot in the door with minimum fuss.
When someone is self-deluded, they can think and say anything and justify it to themselves. And is that not exactly what has happened in more recent times, an exercise in trying to diss the internet?
Your point about the relationship between the 'free' media and the 'democratic' political leadership (i love the voluntary D notices that are involuntarily always obeyed) is obviously true, but here on urban it's not supposed to be like that. Supposedly most posters here are of the left persuasion and much more labour than tory. Yet they always seem to me to be far more interested in waffling on about theoretical shit to show others how much they 'know', while real shit going on like these ID cards is meriting very little response here on this thread, and i recall similar threads in the past where i always see you and taffboy holding the torch.
And since urban displays a similar couldn't really care attitude, i surmise that maybe two or three million in britain can see the wood from the trees, and that includes those who reply to these blogs written by the insane self-delusionists, while the rest range from apathetic to ignorant. I also meet many decent people on my trips back who won't complain or get involved because they can't see what difference they can make. They appear politically disenfranchised.
Britain is in a nasty way these days with some really disgraceful people running the show. One thousand quid fine for not telling them you've changed your address...... fucking mad man!
That doublethink is interesting. I always used to listen to people telling me overtly they don't believe what they read in the papers, but then in the next breath report stuff from them as if it's fact.
I don't think people can really be blamed. The whole system is based on a doublethink, on a lie. Those in leadership and the media all practise this double thinking, although i normally just call it self-delusion. See books by erich fromm for the causes.
But your point you made for me is well-received. I'd not properly gone down that avenue, and that makes it a bit more frightening than it was before!
Look at the varied forces impacting on people (debt, celebrity worship, marketing, consumption disease, tv, mass fear), and it's not surprising the level of brainwashing and self-delusion that is the outcome.
People have forgotten along the way that they are human beings, not human havings.
!
What to say?? I loved reading the comments from people, just to help me understand there is a depth of feeling out on the streets.
Can i just say that the only way to solve all these problems is not through politics. This harris man's replies to the comments his blog prompted has proven this beyond doubt. You cannot beat a politician with politics. Only when sufficient numbers in britain learn this hard lesson may things improve. Politics is all negative energy. This labour government just had more negative ions than normal.
Is there any article anywhere with any kinds of interviews with any MPs about getting the book?
Ha! We wish. It was more or less a complete media blackout on both the 1984 campaign and the Nov 5th walk. Lots and lots of blogs and smaller, independent news outlets (e.g. the Register) picked it up. Not aware of a single interview on this however. Press releases were sent to every major news provider btw.
hang on a minute. Can you confirm my summary is correct: you and others combined your energies to get a copy of 1984 out to every MP in the land, which they all received, and subsequent to this amazing action (has such a thing occurred before where all MPs get the same thing in the post) the mainstream media have not printed a single story about it??? Despite being informed of it?
And the tv news? Surely such an action is headline news!
I know it's not, that the system does not want to face up to its own self-delusion, but it nevertheless still always remains amazing to me.
Can you not do a follow up that somehow gets the news out to the british public about all their MPs receiving a copy of 1984 to highlight the parallels in today's society?
Either way, i'm really impressed at this action!!
What was the nov 5th walk about?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
I just called round a few major NW media outlets.
Guess how many of 3 newsteams knew about the ID card registering starting tomorrow?
Zero.
That's right. Media news teams. Havent the government done a good job of keeping it hush hush? And I thunk they were so proud of their little scheme.
Guess how many of 3 newsteams knew about the ID card registering starting tomorrow?
Zero.
That's right. Media news teams. Havent the government done a good job of keeping it hush hush? And I thunk they were so proud of their little scheme.
Over my dead body will I take one of these, pay them a fucking penny or force them to give my wife a damn card. I'll just not bother coming back to England if the gov carries on with this shit.
As far as I can see there has been a brain drain as people have left Britain looking for a better life, this is going to be the final straw when students and other foreign nationals pass up on working/studying in the UK to go elsewhere.
TomPaine
Similar threads
