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New Labour think tank IPPR supports mass immigration

D

durruti02

love and rage!
http://www.ippr.org.uk/pressreleases/?id=3234

"The report shows that migrants play a key role in changing the local ‘skills mix’ by filling skills gaps, and doing jobs that UK workers don’t want to do."

well ask the fucking question WHY!!! ffs :D .. immigration means we will never deal with issues of poor working conditions, low wages, shitty jobs, factory farming, what are real food prices etc etc etc

" ippr argues that local government and employers need to ensure that the benefits produced by employing migrant workers are accompanied by local strategies to ensure that indigenous workers’ wages and job opportunities aren’t damaged; and to ensure local businesses don’t become overly reliant on migrant workers."

well at least they supporting me here :D .. except it is just hot air ..

p.s. you know who are headlining the issue you know where ..
 
I didnt read anywhere where the report talks about "mass" migration.

IMO migration is a fact of life and has been since the dawn of the time. Make of it what you will. Anti migrant sentiment suits the elite perfectly - divide and rule. Migration is also a tool to clamp down on pay and conditions, but we must recognise that the migrant is as likely to suffer as the indiginous.

Still, the IPPR as Lab flunkies desperately need more inward migration. Who else is going to vote for that bunch of shits?
 
durruti02 said:
http://www.ippr.org.uk/pressreleases/?id=3234

"The report shows that migrants play a key role in changing the local ‘skills mix’ by filling skills gaps, and doing jobs that UK workers don’t want to do."

well ask the fucking question WHY!!! ffs :D .. immigration means we will never deal with issues of poor working conditions, low wages, shitty jobs, factory farming, what are real food prices etc etc etc

" ippr argues that local government and employers need to ensure that the benefits produced by employing migrant workers are accompanied by local strategies to ensure that indigenous workers’ wages and job opportunities aren’t damaged; and to ensure local businesses don’t become overly reliant on migrant workers."

well at least they supporting me here :D .. except it is just hot air ..

p.s. you know who are headlining the issue you know where ..
Click to expand...

Unions such as Unity have already started organizing immigrant workers. Probably only on a small scale. But at least they have started.

BarryB
 
Privately, many employers would prefer to employ migrant staff than locals, not just because many find them to be better motivated and with a superior work ethic, but often because they have more skills than their UK counterparts. Not everyone is confident that UK workers will be able to fill the gap. Matthews from Improve says: 'If we think colleges and universities will meet this skills shortage, we may be in for a surprise. We could see a problem with productivity.'
Click to expand...


That article in the Observer business says it all about the elites attitude to migration, a neo-liberal ramp! and also the absolute failure of NL's education and training policies
 
durruti02 said:
http://www.ippr.org.uk/pressreleases/?id=3234

"The report shows that migrants play a key role in changing the local ‘skills mix’ by filling skills gaps, and doing jobs that UK workers don’t want to do."

well ask the fucking question WHY!!! ffs :D .. immigration means we will never deal with issues of poor working conditions, low wages, shitty jobs, factory farming, what are real food prices etc etc etc
Click to expand...

Quite.

Hurrah for immigration! Down with the stroppy greedy native plebs who want more than the Nat Min Wage and want half-decent working conditions and sometimes even answer back!

I do wonder sometimes whether the people who take the line about immigrants 'doing the jobs natives don't want to do' are deliberately obscuring the reality, because they are propagandist shits who want to keep wages down and prefer us not even to think wages could go up significantly, or are just innocently accepting the line from people who want to keep wages down, and naively believe that the miserably low wages are fixed features of certain types of work. I suppose sometimes it's one and sometimes the other. The people who work for a 'think tank' like the IPPR must be clever enough and thoughtful enough to know exactly what they are doing, mustn't they?
 
The time has come to say Britain is full
All comments (187)

* Andrew Anthony
*
o Andrew Anthony
o The Observer,
o Sunday August 31 2008

The science of demographic projection and the art of scaremongering enjoy a relationship akin to that of the sadist and masochist: first comes the threat, then the relish with which the punishment is anticipated. Thus forecasts of increasing population numbers are guaranteed to produce dystopian visions of social collapse.

The godfather of apocalyptic demographics was the Rev Thomas Malthus, who famously proposed in the late 18th century that unchecked population growth would lead to starvation. Population, he said, was destined to increase exponentially in relation to food supply. In the event, Britain's population grew from a hungry eight million in Malthus's time to today's well-fed 61 million.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/aug/31/immigration.population
Click to expand...



Andrew Anthony in the Observer, says the 'unthinkable' well in terms of todays liberal orthodoxies anyway,
 
well ask the fucking question WHY!!! ffs .. immigration means we will never deal with issues of poor working conditions, low wages, shitty jobs, factory farming, what are real food prices etc etc etc
Click to expand...


Exactly, what about the hundreds of thousands of Neets or men in their fifties prematurley retired in the old industrial areas as the only employment disapperars, never hear the NB brigade challenging that. If there are skills gaps, train up people for them, why is it so hard to comprehend for the neo-liberals and sadly the left fellow travellers.
 
JHE said:
I do wonder sometimes whether the people who take the line about immigrants 'doing the jobs natives don't want to do' are deliberately obscuring the reality, because they are propagandist shits who want to keep wages down
Click to expand...


Maybe a stint as an immigrant worker yourself might clear up your "wondering".

I'm the last to argue that the indigenous working class should take shit jobs and shit money. Look who is shifting the beer crates, washing your dishes, cleaning your drains, peeling the spuds and emptying the bins.
 
Isambard said:
Maybe a stint as an immigrant worker yourself might clear up your "wondering".

I'm the last to argue that the indigenous working class should take shit jobs and shit money. Look who is shifting the beer crates, washing your dishes, cleaning your drains, peeling the spuds and emptying the bins.
Click to expand...

The thing is that those jobs are being done by migrant workers in many cases as you say. They have far more inceentives to take those jobs than brits on benefits. Personally i dont think that is a very healthy situation. The benefits system should not be discouraging people from working. On the bus the other day i look up and see yet another poster talking about benefit cheats.....but why shouldnt somebody earn an extra £40 or £50 on top of very meagre benefits.
It is an absulute disgrace how this country treats people on benefits and also how it poaches skilled workers from poorer countries.
 
I can't see why we don't just defend people's right to immigration as a fundamental human liberty. Those with money find it easy to hop borders and switch nationalities - barring immigrants puts a price on your human identity, one which disproportionately harms the poor.

It seems fairly obvious to me that allowing immigration into a country like Britain will make working conditions for the "natives" shitter - but, err, let's break out of our parochial bourgeois mindsets abit, shall we? Capital is an international system of exploitation, national boundaries are exploited to divide people of the world, the impoverishment of Albanian gypsies can be directly linked to political and economic decisions taken at the top which aren't restricted to Albania's own geopolitical region, etc etc. How on Earth can we justify not allowing poor foreigners (whose labour has probably supplied the bulk of Britain's ill-gotten wealth) to move and reap the benefits of a more affluent region of the planet?
 
Das Uberdog said:
It seems fairly obvious to me that allowing immigration into a country like Britain will make working conditions for the "natives" shitter - but, err...
Click to expand...

Your open borders idea would be a great way to force any government in power to listen to the electorate and take a tougher line on immigration. Since your idea is fantasy anyway why not propose moving all these Albanians and others into middle class areas and making their lives and local services much shitter? Personally I think people just despise the chavs so much that making their situation worse is a hypothetical to delight in.

I heard a guy from the IPPR on Newsnight debating with the much hated migrationwatch chairman, Andrew Green. The IPPR guy made a nob out of himself. He deliberately confused asylum seekers with economic migrants knowing that he was talking bollocks but trying to play on people's sympathy. When Green pointed this out the IPPR guy could do nothing but grin. It just fucked me off that he was there on Newsnight treating the whole debate as a frivolous exercise.

The truth about organisations like the IPPR is that they have their gut feeling then build a case around it. New Labour had the same sympathies so used the IPPR to give them legitimacy. In fact they would have pursued the policy of mass immigration anyway.
 
Isambard said:
I'm the last to argue that the indigenous working class should take shit jobs and shit money. Look who is shifting the beer crates, washing your dishes, cleaning your drains, peeling the spuds and emptying the bins.
Click to expand...

did you not read the OP? :D that is the bloody point! ..

while we allow the cowboys and the spivs to import migrants we will NEVER deal with poor working conditions, low wages etc and how we as a society, as a community, deal with the shittier jobs that need doing ...

and btw are you arguing that is is BETTER that we get 'foreigners' to do our dirty work?? that seems to be what most fo the left is happy with! lol
 
Das Uberdog said:
It seems fairly obvious to me that allowing immigration into a country like Britain will make working conditions for the "natives" shitter - but, err, let's break out of our parochial bourgeois mindsets abit, shall we?

How on Earth can we justify not allowing poor foreigners (whose labour has probably supplied the bulk of Britain's ill-gotten wealth) to move and reap the benefits of a more affluent region of the planet?
Click to expand...

THIS IS THE SWP IN 2008??? ... :mad:

FFS NO wonder most of the left is fucked ..

NO, absolutly NO, comprehension of working class history

NO comprehension of how to create a working class movement ..

really really so so so wrong ..

shakes head and looks up bus times to archway bridge :(

actually you know i think this is really fucking offensive .. you know i only just found out my grandmothers home up till the 6ts ( died when i was young ) , didn't have inside water, and had a movable shed over holes in the garden for a toilet and millions of others lived in poverty and STILL do in this country .. so don't give YOUR bullshit middle class we are all 'affluent' shite ..
 
Das Uberdog said:
It seems fairly obvious to me that allowing immigration into a country like Britain will make working conditions for the "natives" shitter - but, err, let's break out of our parochial bourgeois mindsets abit, shall we?
Click to expand...

Is this what you say to UK working class people who are being negatively affected by this issue?
 
durruti02 said:
.. i only just found out my grandmothers home up till the 6ts ( died when i was young ) , didn't have inside water, and had a movable shed over holes in the garden for a toilet and millions of others lived in poverty
Click to expand...


Similar to my experiences in fact. That side of my family being from Irish immigrant stock. Scots on the other side btw.

Internationalism used to be the standard when comprehending working class history, It appears now, that for some, it has gone beyond any notion of a 'parochial bourgeois mindset'.

You say:

..we allow the cowboys and the spivs to import migrants.
Click to expand...

These "spivs and cowboys" exploit all workers (including migrants), everyday. Calling for further restrictions on workers can only lead to further eploitation of these workers, this time at a more intensive rate. It will also lead to more pressure being put on those workers who are either ill, sick, or disabled to fill the gaps.

One can only wonder in amazement how these restrictions of yours on migrant workers, wanting to come and work here, will affect the already high cost of fresh fruit and vegetables on a indegenous working class diet suffering a credit crunch?
 
MC5 said:
Similar to my experiences in fact. That side of my family being from Irish immigrant stock. Scots on the other side btw.

Internationalism used to be the standard when comprehending working class history, It appears now, that for some, it has gone beyond any notion of a 'parochial bourgeois mindset'.

You say:



These "spivs and cowboys" exploit all workers (including migrants), everyday. Calling for further restrictions on workers can only lead to further eploitation of these workers, this time at a more intensive rate. It will also lead to more pressure being put on those workers who are either ill, sick, or disabled to fill the gaps.

One can only wonder in amazement how these restrictions of yours on migrant workers, wanting to come and work here, will affect the already high cost of fresh fruit and vegetables on a indegenous working class diet suffering a credit crunch?
Click to expand...

you back smear artist?

so do i even bother to mention that of course spivs and cowboys exploit ALL workers though migrants are MUCH easier to exploit ... do i even bother to ask WHERE i call for restrictions on workers?? as you well know i simply argue that community and unions should decide work and wages NOT the bosses ..

liberals like you hand over ALL decisions to the market ..
and your internationalism is feeble and empty being based on nothing .. workers power without the workers lol .. that sums up the liberal swp left
 
durruti02 - you're a fricking moron. I have never tried to hide the fact that immigrant labour is utilised by capitalists to flood the market and lower the costs of hiring labour. It's unnecessary. But are you seriously trying to argue that it's in the migrants best interests that they are restricted access to affluent Western economies?

What a patronising view you have of their abilities to comprehend what is in their own best interests. In reality, they know that moving to Britain will provide a better life and a better wage than they may even be able to achieve as a professional in their home countries. This is fact.

You seem to be forgetting that these people are workers too - that their flight from their homelands to areas of the globe where they often cannot speak the language, where their future is uncertain and where they face the wrath of the malignant native population and press does not come as an easy decision, but one taken out of desperation. That you would deny these people the right to work in the geographical area of their choosing on the spurious basis that though Brits may be proportionately better off, they still aren't 'affluent' is in no way based around your interest in the betterment of the working class as a whole, but in your interest of a specific section of the class which has (through struggle and bitter conflict) managed to attain for itself a higher degree of living standards.

This attitude does not spark of one which is interested in the global emancipation of human beings, but rather, of a conservative and reformist attitude interested only in defending meagre reforms (which by your own admission do not go far enough even in their application to such a small section of the global populace).

As for letting the 'market decide' - no, I'm in favour of attaining a worker's society in which ordinary people can 'decide' collectively and rationally. If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that you can't reform capitalism, and that reformist socialist policies lead not to the emancipation of the proles, but to economic stagnation, the dilution of socialist values and the destruction of the few benefits capitalism does have to offer the class and humanity as a whole (dynamism, efficiency, etc).
 
MC5 said:
Internationalism used to be the standard when comprehending working class history, It appears now, that for some, it has gone beyond any notion of a 'parochial bourgeois mindset'.
Click to expand...

what is simply incredible is that somehow you and the liberal left have forgoten that to create workers power, to create real internationalism you need to actually involve workers to create power in the first place

you and your feeble left have reduced internationalism to meaningless liberal sloganeering based on empty rhetoric ..

building w/c power and being internationalist is nothing, absolutely nothing, if you do not build where you live from the base ..

and incredibly you understand this, you see this as a 'parochial bourgeois mindset' .. total nonsense ..

you and uberdog sum up all that is wrong with british leftism
 
MC5 said:
One can only wonder in amazement how these restrictions of yours on migrant workers, wanting to come and work here, will affect the already high cost of fresh fruit and vegetables on a indegenous working class diet suffering a credit crunch?
Click to expand...

and this is internationalism?? lolrofl .. if you could only see how stupid you look?? get the slavs and wogs to do the brits dirty work eh MC?? so the rest fo us can have cheap food??

and lets ignore the supermarkets and middle mens profits eh??

cheap labour IS the answer says MC5!!
 
durruti02 said:
and this is internationalism?? lolrofl .. if you could only see how stupid you look?? get the slavs and wogs to do the brits dirty work eh MC?? so the rest fo us can have cheap food??

and lets ignore the supermarkets and middle mens profits eh??

cheap labour IS the answer says MC5!!
Click to expand...

Wogs? Fuck off you pathetic little turd.

Closing up the border won't change the division of money - those jobs won't magically start paying more once you get rid of the 'slavs' and 'wogs' - all that'll happen is that we'll lose more of our agricultural base and import more food, probably at higher prices. The bosses will conbtinue to make the same amount.

International solidarity for the working classes means open borders. Otherwise all you end up is with a load of serfs elsewhere doing our dtiry work, usually for lower wages and in poorer working conditions. At least migrant workers can send home cash to their families, giving a direct boost to local economies and helping to combat the core and periphery model.
 
Das Uberdog said:
1) durruti02 - you're a fricking moron.

2)I have never tried to hide the fact that immigrant labour is utilised by capitalists to flood the market and lower the costs of hiring labour. It's unnecessary.

3)But are you seriously trying to argue that it's in the migrants best interests that they are restricted access to affluent Western economies?

4)What a patronising view you have of their abilities to comprehend what is in their own best interests. In reality, they know that moving to Britain will provide a better life and a better wage than they may even be able to achieve as a professional in their home countries. This is fact.

5)You seem to be forgetting that these people are workers too - that their flight from their homelands to areas of the globe where they often cannot speak the language, where their future is uncertain and where they face the wrath of the malignant native population and press does not come as an easy decision, but one taken out of desperation.

6)That you would deny these people the right to work in the geographical area of their choosing on the spurious basis that though Brits may be proportionately better off, they still aren't 'affluent' is in no way based around your interest in the betterment of the working class as a whole, but in your interest of a specific section of the class which has (through struggle and bitter conflict) managed to attain for itself a higher degree of living standards.

7)This attitude does not spark of one which is interested in the global emancipation of human beings, but rather, of a conservative and reformist attitude interested only

8)in defending meagre reforms (which by your own admission do not go far enough even in their application to such a small section of the global populace).

9)As for letting the 'market decide' - no, I'm in favour of attaining a worker's society in which ordinary people can 'decide' collectively and rationally. If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that you can't reform capitalism, and that reformist socialist policies lead not to the emancipation of the proles, but to economic stagnation, the dilution of socialist values and the destruction of the few benefits capitalism does have to offer the class and humanity as a whole (dynamism, efficiency, etc).
Click to expand...

uberdog posts edited to add numbers ..

1) really?

2) so why do you defend it and not attack this abusive process with all your energy???????

3) of course it is not neccessaryly in the migrants short term interests if we, here, prioritise building workers power .. but it will definately be in their LONG term interests

4) yes but this does NOTHING for building a workers power that will change the world so people do not have to bloody migrate, will it???????????????????

5) really?? do i?? i work with migrants day in day out .. i have organised them, unionised them, helped them get better terms and conditions, and i was on strike and picket duty with them the other day .. do NOT tell me i do not know ..

6) you simply do not understand do you?? it is nothing to do with affluence .. it is about creating power in our ( your??) class .. a power that will change the world for ALL ..

7) your misunderstanding shows how detacted the left has become .. you have lost the understanding that to change the world you need to have power, to have power you need people, you need the whole fucking class .. you have to start somewhere.. in fact not somewhere but where you live .. where you work .. without this base all the rhetoric in the world amounts to nothing ...

8) ditto ditto ditto .. it is NOTING to do with reforms .. you are soo dogmatically blind that you think this ..

9) good at least we agree on that ..
 
tarannau said:
Wogs? Fuck off you pathetic little turd.

Closing up the border won't change the division of money - those jobs won't magically start paying more once you get rid of the 'slavs' and 'wogs' - all that'll happen is that we'll lose more of our agricultural base and import more food, probably at higher prices. The bosses will conbtinue to make the same amount.

International solidarity for the working classes means open borders. Otherwise all you end up is with a load of serfs elsewhere doing our dtiry work, usually for lower wages and in poorer working conditions. At least migrant workers can send home cash to their families, giving a direct boost to local economies and helping to combat the core and periphery model.
Click to expand...

so you support using foreigners for cheap labour too!!!?? bloody hell .. child of migranst supports cheap labour system

where have i said closing the borders? i support open borders too .. i also support the bosses being strung up for using cheap migrant labour when all the black ( and other ) kids around here are unemployed .. clearly you do not give a fuck about them

"the bosses will continue .. blah blah blah" .. hey ho you don't think things can get better??? so lets just keep the old cheap labour system?? ..

brilliant .. bye ..
 
Talk about seeking to limit immigration in order to create the chance to build a strategic working class bridgehead in a rich industrialised country appears to me to be pissing in the wind.
 
toblerone3 said:
Talk about seeking to limit immigration in order to create the chance to build a strategic working class bridgehead in a rich industrialised country appears to me to be pissing in the wind.
Click to expand...
if anyone was i would agree with you .. yet again you have missed the point .. that is to change society you need power .. to create power you need people .. the left seems to have forgotten this .. how else do you make a better society where people are not forced to migrate for their families??
 
toblerone3 said:
Talk about seeking to limit immigration in order to create the chance to build a strategic working class bridgehead in a rich industrialised country appears to me to be pissing in the wind.
Click to expand...


Exactly. It's such a daft, illogical idea that it doesn't hold any credibility.

FWIW Durutti, I'm the grandchild of an indentured worker - all the way from China to Guyana - to work the fields. And then my immediate family moved over here as a result of colonialism.

I don't have this arbitrary definition of 'foreigner' like you - my concern is making the best for all the world's poor and balancing a nasty global core and periphery system. In essence Durrutti just wants to ghettoise and restrict the working class, pulling up the drawbridge and saying 'we Brits are alright jack,' by using restrictive, protectionist labour practices

And, before you start, remittances from my grandfather helped elevate my family out of poverty both in China and beyond. I'd also like to think that my immediate, very much working class family, have contributed widely to the UK and helped folk around here.

Much better than closing the borders, wouldn't you say?
 
durruti02 said:
you back smear artist?

so do i even bother to mention that of course spivs and cowboys exploit ALL workers though migrants are MUCH easier to exploit ... do i even bother to ask WHERE i call for restrictions on workers?? as you well know i simply argue that community and unions should decide work and wages NOT the bosses ..

liberals like you hand over ALL decisions to the market ..
and your internationalism is feeble and empty being based on nothing .. workers power without the workers lol .. that sums up the liberal swp left
Click to expand...

I never went away tosser.

The mass of workers are forced to sell their labour power for a wage that covers their subsistence but little else. That's why it's important to organise migrant workers in unions to prevent the relentless push to drive down wages and conditions generally.

To do this effectively workers have to unite to fight for the rights of all workers. A common struggle across the labour movement, to improve all our conditions and wages, a fight against both the ravages of neoliberalism and racism.
 
MC5 said:
To do this effectively workers have to unite to fight for the rights of all workers. A common struggle across the labour movement, to improve all our conditions and wages, a fight against both the ravages of neoliberalism and racism.
Click to expand...

Indeed.

(expects buttock-clenchingly inept reply involving the words 'spivs' 'bosses,' 'immigrants,' 'cheap migrant' and 'foreigners' with A FEW ranDOm BLOCK CAPITALS THROWN IN+!!@)
 
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