Ireland Votes No

A few more points...

If one thinks about it critically for a second: the [free] market[eer]s [financial markets in particular, leading the charge in this respect] are doing precisely that - a minute by minute assessment and decision making process in the hands of those at the controls [it could be done for all of us these days, as the technology is there]...

A virtual/real parliament that shapes all our lives. [See Chomsky, for instance.] It couldn't have been done without the political state that invented it all and allowed it all, integrated it all, changed the legislative framework to make it all possible and so forth...

It [the market] is, as we all know, still extremely irrational [and still they are allowed to keep on doing it!!] and it [the market] is no longer doing [just] its alleged intended function: being the correctional etc. mechanism.

Nowadays, they call the shots... If a policy is not liked by the twats -off they go with the money [the speculative investors] and the huge inflows and outflows of money destabilises economies as strong as those of the US and UK!

But it is not inevitable. Take the South-East Asian crisis in the 90's: SK etc. were devastated... But one Mahatir Mohamed [spit-spit, the nasty bastard that he is - and I mean it!] managed to weather the storm quite easily. He just pulled the plug on those arseholes. No big problems like in SK, with the outflow of the investments, cashing them in and repatriating all...

We all could be doing the Mahatir thing, each time the neo-libs/neo-cons/the exclusivist "elites" try to pull a fast one on the rest of us... But...

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Going back to the Neo-Lib/Neo-Con [the US, by and large, plus some of the EU elites and bankers/financiers/industrialists etc.] utopia versus the Social Democratic vision of a community, with a potential proper role for the state etc. [the "older" vision of the EU, as opposed to this, neo-lib "newer" one]: there is still a huge role for the state no one - even amongst the Neo-Libs dare question!!! Oh, yes, Keysianism is well and truly the master, even if we're gonna call it Neo-Keynsianism, i.e. Keynsianism in new clothes...

Look at the current shit in the US - who was immediately called to "lend a helping hand"? The state! And it did. To the tune of billions of taxpayers money, straight to the greedy banks etc. - which weren't doing their jobs properly. Mind, the state wasn't doing it's job either - regulating and inspecting it as it should have done!

So, now the "intimate connection" between the state and capital is revealed! Suddenly, it's "never mind the neo-lib mantra" of "less state, no subsidies, less regulation, privatisation" etc. Oh, no: now we need a big and strong state - because it's our own arses that are on the line... Call Bush!!!

As they always do. As in 25 billion a year for agro business alone, in the US. Yep, the "price stabilisation programme". Good for the US [not to mention the EU but they didn't really start the neo-lib shite, to begin with!] but no good for others. Take it away from them! Via the IMF, WB etc.

Well, guess what: forget about the charges about the "crony capitalism" in SK and such places! There is no bigger "crony capitalism" than in the US/UK etc.!

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As for how to proceed with the EU project, involving the citizens [and gaining legitimacy] or excluding them [and getting away from a truly great project embedded deeply in a Social Democratic model]:

Is there a political will, for instance in the UK, to get the proper debate show on the road?!? Can we all, in huge numbers, especially taking the spirit of the youth with us, get seriously well informed, educated [on a much larger scale than right now is the case] and then choose in an informed manner?!?

I doubt it very much... And boy, wouldn't I love to be wrong on this one...

It's not 26, JTG. And other things don't add up in all this.

Parliamentary/representative democracy, as opposed to direct democracy had its day. For a reason mentioned by lbj.

However, the technology is now opening new possibilities...

Time to reflect and strategise, methinx...

gorski said:

It's not 26, JTG. And other things don't add up in all this.

Parliamentary/representative democracy, as opposed to direct democracy had its day. For a reason mentioned by lbj.

However, the technology is now opening new possibilities...

Time to reflect and strategise, methinx...

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New ways to organise can and do happen. The French or Russian revolutions taught us that, surely. The current capitalist 'liberal democracy' is far from inevitable and need not last for ever.

phildwyer said:

Agaın no offence, but thıs strıkes me as a remarkably patronızıng attıtude.

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No offence but it's reality. I cannot vote on a complicated medical piece of legislation cos I don't understand it. If the legal issue is equally complex, how can the general public vote for it?

Multilateral international treaties which govern multi-level governance systems are not something that should be put on referenda. The results of such referenda are purely political, not substance based at all.

You don't get the right to vote based on your specialist understanding of the issue but because you'll be effected by it.

Case dismissed.

Exactly, how can you give up your right to decide on something that affects you so much?

And besides, just cos you don't understand doesn't mean noone else can and wants to lose their chance to decide on it.

If a jury can be helped by experts on a seriously complex case... then the same principle needs enacting in these matters, even in the UK!

Proper public debate, with different sides talking, explaining their understanding and general, broad positions. Given time, interested-ness and good will...

As I said: resources must be made available, TV, radio, internet, all the media channels need to do much more, not just 1 or 2 TV shows of some 40 minutes effective debating and that's it, back to Hollywood...

Time must be made available from commercial shite! For reasons given above! Or else... For instance, in France and the Netherlands the so called "common people" [lay, non-professionals] were informed and educated from all sides of the argument and they understood perfectly that it's too much of the US neo-lib shite... In the end, given the effort necessary, everybody can understand anything of this sort!

gorski said:

If a jury can be helped by experts on a seriously complex case... then the same principle needs enacting in these matters, even in the UK!

Proper public debate, with different sides talking, explaining their understanding and general, broad positions. Given time, interested-ness and good will...

As I said: resources must be made available, TV, radio, internet, all the media channels need to do much more, not just 1 or 2 TV shows of some 40 minutes effective debating and that's it, back to Hollywood...

Time must be made available from commercial shite! For reasons given above! Or else... For instance, in France and the Netherlands the so called "common people" [lay, non-professionals] were informed and educated from all sides of the argument and they understood perfectly that it's too much of the US neo-lib shite... In the end, given the effort necessary, everybody can understand anything of this sort!

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Wow, you can't see the difference between expert help on jury cases and restricting the franchise in 2008.

What the fuck are you on about?

The principle of citizenship is at play here, in both cases.

gorski said:

If a jury can be helped by experts on a seriously complex case... then the same principle needs enacting in these matters, even in the UK!

Proper public debate, with different sides talking, explaining their understanding and general, broad positions. Given time, interested-ness and good will...

As I said: resources must be made available, TV, radio, internet, all the media channels need to do much more, not just 1 or 2 TV shows of some 40 minutes effective debating and that's it, back to Hollywood...

Time must be made available from commercial shite! For reasons given above! Or else... For instance, in France and the Netherlands the so called "common people" [lay, non-professionals] were informed and educated from all sides of the argument and they understood perfectly that it's too much of the US neo-lib shite... In the end, given the effort necessary, everybody can understand anything of this sort!

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A fine ideal, but unfortunately I can't see any way the information could be put out in a neutral (or as near neutral as damn it) package, shorn of "spin" and partisan politics.

gorski said:

What the fuck are you on about?

The principle of citizenship is at play here, in both cases.

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Yes well done. And you seem to want to undermine it.

But that's the name of the game: hence all the interested parties come out to play and we make our minds up after all have had their say... In the end, if one is not an expert, one still has to do that much...

butchersapron said:

Yes well done. And you seem to want to undermine it.

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I told you before: get that chip off your shoulder...

I make a straightforward couple of points, you seem totally confused by them. Maybe if you look again at the chronology of the tread your mistake will beceome clear.

Stop bloody pretending, ffs, it's so unbecoming... and frankly - laughable...

Onwards and upwards. The nutty professorr gets yet another thread [and argumement] arse about tit.

Bullshit!

I explained my points, spent some time doing it in good faith.

You are - as per usual - just posturing, no good will, no time spent, nothing put out in the open, properly explained!!!

And as always, in an all important self-aggrandising manner... So nothing new, that chip is still where it always was...

I explained my point too nutty. Stop being so rabid as soon as you see my name.

Where? How? Then, please feel free to compare it to mine...

gorski said:

But that's the name of the game: hence all the interested parties come out to play and we make our minds up after all have had their say... In the end, if one is not an expert, one still has to do that much...

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No, one doesn't. There's no civil obligation for people to inform themselves, and any "moral obligation" is invariably hedged by the source of the morality.

It would be great if all people did feel such an obligation, but the reality is that many don't.

gorski said:

Where? How? Then, please feel free to compare it to mine...

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I posted my point in relation to an ongoing argument about whose entitled and should be entitled to vote. Read onwards from there - without frothing.

Who said that everyone is of good will and obliged, VP?

I said: that much one must do [provided there is a decent, wide and proper public debate] if one wants to vote with a good idea which way one's interests lie...

The point was that the Irish have said NO mostly on the basis of not knowing, not being informed...

gorski said:

Who said that everyone is obliged?

I said: that much one must do [provided there is a decent, wide and proper public debate] if one wants to vote with a good idea which way one's interests lie...

The point was that the Irish have said NO mostly on the basis of not knowing, not being informed...

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Have they?

butchersapron said:

I posted my point in relation to an ongoing argument about whose entitled and should be entitled to vote. Read onwards from there - without frothing.

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Says a man who constantly tries to impose himself, whenever possible, in a really aggressive manner, with a tone that is almost always much more than just making a point...

gorski said:

Says a man who constantly tries to impose himself, whenever possible, in a really aggressive manner, with a tone that is almost always much more than just making a point...

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Don't bother then prof. It doesn't matter.

butchersapron said:

Have they?

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That was the point made earlier - see the quotes.

And I agree!

gorski said:

That was the point made earlier - see the quotes.

And I agree!

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Many points were made earlier. Which one?

I'm Irish. My whole family voted no. It wasn't because they're uniformed, it's because they're already too informed on a practial rather than PR level of what the EU means. Please tell us we're wrong though.

Read. Or don't bother because you're Irish and you have nothing new to hear and learn from anyone anyway.

Tick Irish, too tick too get the nutty professoers view- in need of special education. Or, his view being all too clear. You're thick, you count for nothing, until you've been trained to agree with us and the tehcnocrats.

It's not mine.

Just look at yourself: you are telling me to go back and read - and what are you now doing, when I point you to a specific and main point of the thread, as it were...?