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Why don't people insist that the arab countries bordering Israel open their borders?

Z

ZWord

Freedom Next Time
Why don't people insist that the arab countries that border Israel open their borders to Palestinians, if they think that it's wrong of Israel not to allow free movement to palestinians who don't hold Israeli citizenship.. (note that some palestinians do hold israeli citizenship, and do quite well out of it, and don't even have to serve in the army, like jewish israelis.) There was a time, I'm told when all palestinians were offered citizenship, but most refused it.

Given that it's widely agreed that there's enmity between israeli jews and palestinians, and also between jews and arabs in general, surely it would be more reasonable to expect the arab countries bordering israel to solve the palestinian problem by opening their borders and offering citizenship to the palestinians.

Syria and Jordan have a lot more land.
 
So basically your saying that if Israel wants to stop risking the lives of Israelis who are conscripted to guard the settlers in Palestine, and instead of bringing them home to Israel, you want to move the all Palestinians instead into the surrounding countries? This isn't a viable proposition at all. Where do you get these ideas from?

Bring the Settlers Home! We can't wait for 2008!
 
Apart from provoking moono and tangentlama, is there a point to this thread?

If you think you/Israel don't deserve so much hatred, why try to provoke them?

How about engaging in a mature discussion?
 
astronaut, i am not provoked. i am replying to a thread that is basically questioning why the Palestinians aren't being ethnically cleansed from Occupied Palestine.

the only obstacle he can see to ethnic cleansing is the fact that the surrounding Middle Eastern countries aren't allowing Palestinians to settle there, as 'permanent' refugees.

i really don't know where this person is coming from. what he's suggesting is a crime against humanity.
 
tangentlama said:
astronaut, i am not provoked.
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I don't necessarily agree -- despite the tempered tone, your response was just as provocative as the original one.

How about ignoring such a provocative post next time?



really don't know where this person is coming from. what he's suggesting is a crime against humanity.
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That is true, but it takes so long to read to understand what he means (49 words in a badly constructed sentence), surely that person isn't worth of a response?
 
tangentlama said:
So basically your saying that if Israel wants to stop risking the lives of Israelis who are conscripted to guard the settlers in Palestine, and instead of bringing them home to Israel, you want to move the all Palestinians instead into the surrounding countries? This isn't a viable proposition at all. Where do you get these ideas from?
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I had the idea myself.

No that's not basically what I'm saying. My view of the conflict is that it's utterly insane, and there's no good objective reason why there shouldn't be one state, consisting of palestinian and jewish israelis. There are however an enormous amount of subjective reasons why this appears to be impossible, as there is an enormous amount of paranoia and hatred on both sides. The jews for instance fear that if all the palestinians were citizens, then they could vote in a palestinian government who would take reprisals against the jewish israelis.

If you favour a two-state solution, then why would you think that Israel shouldn't stop free movement of palestinians in Israel proper.

Would the problems of the palestinians be over if israel withdrew completely from the occupied territories, and closed their borders permanently? I don't think so. Though I can see that it might be an improvement, and I'm well aware that the behaviour of the israeli armed forces in the occupied territories is pretty shit. (It's worth noting that israeli civilian jews aren't allowed to enter the occupied territories either.)

If you think that palestine and israel should be regarded as different countries, then, why do you expect palestine's enemies to make life easy for the palestinians. Surely, it should be palestine's friends, syria and jordan who should do this. If Jordan were to give the palestinians jordanian citizenship, then they'd be doing a great deal to sort out the problem. That's not about ethnic cleansing or demanding that they all move to jordan, that's about giving them access to a sizeable country with a sizeable economy rather than leaving them in a ghetto.

Why don't they? Could it be that in reality, the arab governments also don't give a fuck about the palestinians, but just want to use them as ammo in the project they've always had of wiping out the nation of Israel.
 
Zword;
Why don't they? Could it be that in reality, the arab governments also don't give a fuck about the palestinians, but just want to use them as ammo in the project they've always had of wiping out the nation of Israel.
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Ah, the motive.

In reality the Arab gene pool is very small and Arabs are notoriously inbred . It would be catastrophic for their evolutionary development to intermingle any further. They have decided, therefore, to shag Israelis.

I hope that answers your loaded question.
 
1. Israel has never offered all Palestinians citizenship. When Jerusalem was illegally annexed, Palestinians in East Jerusalem were offered citizenship on condition that they swore allegiance to the Israeli state. IIRC around 3% took up the offer. The rest remain disenfranchised. Many live essentially in hiding because their identity documents, confirming legal residency in East Jerusalem, have been destroyed or stolen by border police or bureaucratically delayed, which means potential arrest and indefinite imprisonment if caught at one of the many fixed or ad hoc road blocks in and around Jerusalem itself or stopped at random by one of the many armed police roaming the streets.

2. There are more Palestinians living as permanent refugees around the borders than there are in Palestine. Jordan is the only Arab nation to offer citizenship to Palestinian refugees. In Jordan and elsewhere they are treated appallingly. In Lebanon particularly, Palestinian refugees are arguably worse off than those in Palestine.

3. Freedom of movement to other Arab countries requires the cooperation of Israel. It is extremely difficult for Palestinians to leave the country. Palestinian students winning scholarships abroad frequently have to delay or abandon them because they cannot get across the Israeli-controlled borders despite having all the appropriate visas and paperwork. The Palestinians I know who got out recently either had faked documents showing the need for serious medical treatment in Jordan or intervention from the British Foreign Office.

4. Why is it the responsibility of the other Arab countries? Just because they're all Arabs? European countries never fight with each other, after all. We should have just let Nazi Germany expand and absorbed the refugees rather than have that nasty war...
 
ZWord said:
Why don't they? Could it be that in reality, the arab governments also don't give a fuck about the palestinians, but just want to use them as ammo in the project they've always had of wiping out the nation of Israel.
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Yes. Many Palestinians regard the Arab nations as worse than Israel.
 
Yes. Many Palestinians regard the Arab nations as worse than Israel.
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How many ? 42 ? One hundred and eight ? Linky please.

What do you mean by 'worse' ? The Arabs shell the Palestinians more ? The Arabs make pregnant Palestinians stand longer in checkpoint queues ?
There are more Palestinians in Arab prisons than in Israeli prisons ? Please define.
 
moono said:
Zword;


Ah, the motive.

In reality the Arab gene pool is very small and Arabs are notoriously inbred . It would be catastrophic for their evolutionary development to intermingle any further. They have decided, therefore, to shag Israelis.

I hope that answers your loaded question.
Click to expand...

:confused:
 
moono said:
How many ? 42 ? One hundred and eight ? Linky please.

What do you mean by 'worse' ? The Arabs shell the Palestinians more ? The Arabs make pregnant Palestinians stand longer in checkpoint queues ?
There are more Palestinians in Arab prisons than in Israeli prisons ? Please define.
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I said many rather than most because I couldn't tell you whether it was more or less than 50%, I haven't done a poll.

Reasons:

Self-interested involvement in the 1948 war, which many believe could have been won otherwise; failure of Egypt and Jordan to grant full rights (employment, freedom of movement, social provision, etc) to Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank despite being the occupying powers for two decades (from 1948 to 1967); current treatment of Palestinian refugees, especially in Lebanon where the camps have military checkpoints with both freedom of movement and employment severely restricted; cheer-leading for Palestine in public whilst cooperating with Israel in private (especially Jordan). A more recent cause of outrage was Egypt's banning people coming to pay their respects whilst Arafat's coffin was en route back to Palestine.

They feel let down and betrayed. Not that there's any reason to expect any Arab government to behave better than governments anywhere else. It should be obvious that they are interested in the land and they aren't interested in absorbing refugees or allowing popular unrest to destabilise their own domestic affairs.

This comes from talking to Palestinians from the West Bank, Gaza and the Lebanon. There is a good article or two out there, but I don't have a link; I lost my bookmarks when some Zionist hackers killed my computer a while back. I'll have a hunt, but it's a tricky topic to get key words/phrases for without pulling up zillions of other articles.
 
This comes from talking to Palestinians from the West Bank, Gaza and the Lebanon. There is a good article or two out there, but I don't have a link; I lost my bookmarks when some Zionist hackers killed my computer a while back. I'll have a hunt, but it's a tricky topic to get key words/phrases for without pulling up zillions of other articles.
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No, don't search it on my account, thanks for the level response.


Zword;
:confused:
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Yes, they're going to deepen the gene pool by shagging Israelis. Cunning , isn't it. The offspring will be called 'Semites' and we can all go home to us tea.
 
Well if the point is you reckon you're either against Israel or against the arabs, if you ask me, this is typical of the insanity that the palestinian issue causes. Everyone always insists that you take sides.

There's actually no good reason for there to be a problem at all. It's the polarisation into for or against that makes the problem. And the politicians play on it for all they can, just like they do in northern ireland.
 
ZWord said:
Well if the point is you reckon you're either against Israel or against the arabs, if you ask me, this is typical of the insanity that the palestinian issue causes. Everyone always insists that you take sides.

There's actually no good reason for there to be a problem at all. It's the polarisation into for or against that makes the problem. And the politicians play on it for all they can, just like they do in northern ireland.
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Well, nonsense like this doesn't help:
ZWord said:
Why don't people insist that the arab countries that border Israel open their borders to Palestinians, if they think that it's wrong of Israel not to allow free movement to palestinians who don't hold Israeli citizenship.. (note that some palestinians do hold israeli citizenship, and do quite well out of it, and don't even have to serve in the army, like jewish israelis.) There was a time, I'm told when all palestinians were offered citizenship, but most refused it.

Given that it's widely agreed that there's enmity between israeli jews and palestinians, and also between jews and arabs in general, surely it would be more reasonable to expect the arab countries bordering israel to solve the palestinian problem by opening their borders and offering citizenship to the palestinians.

Syria and Jordan have a lot more land.
Click to expand...
Israel have been recognised by the UN as the occupying power in Palestine and therefore have legal responsibility to meet their obligations under international law, which includes allowing refugees to return to their homes and not settling civilian populations in occupied territory. These principles, amongst countless others that Israel violates, became a part of international law following WWII, for some fairly good reasons. The Arab States have no such responsibilities.

Arguing that "Syria and Jordan have a lot more land" is irrelevant. Italy, France and Scandinavia have a lot more land, but if the Cornish, the Welsh and the Brecons announced that they were reoccupying their homeland I think I'd object to being removed from what I now consider to be my homeland, having been vicariously settled here for a millennium or two (since my Roman or Viking or French ancestors invaded).

Thinking about it though, I think my great grandfather was Cornish, so perhaps I could claim my right to return after all. The rest of youse can bugger off. :D
 
Funny actually...

Israel is racist because it has the sheer audacity to demand that anyone who is not a citizen of Israel should be limited in crossing its borders! It is racist because it demands that people from neighbouring lands stop lobbing rockets into Israeli territory! It is so racist, to the point of enacting Apartheid because it seeks a fortified border!!

Yet, if I go for a 12 hour cruise and attempt to disembark at Dubai, I am denied simply because of my Israeli passport. If I try to visit my family's lands, all of which were "appropriated" by those loving Syrians, I am denied to chance to even cross the border! Saudi Arabia? Libya? Oman? Yemen? Not a chance. Yet, Israel with its consistent 8.5 human rights rating and full and equal citizenship for ALL people is racist? OK, you sure convinced me.
 
rachamim18 said:
Israel is racist because it has the sheer audacity to demand that anyone who is not a citizen of Israel should be limited in crossing its borders! It is racist because it demands that people from neighbouring lands stop lobbing rockets into Israeli territory! It is so racist, to the point of enacting Apartheid because it seeks a fortified border!!

Yet, if I go for a 12 hour cruise and attempt to disembark at Dubai, I am denied simply because of my Israeli passport. If I try to visit my family's lands, all of which were "appropriated" by those loving Syrians, I am denied to chance to even cross the border! Saudi Arabia? Libya? Oman? Yemen? Not a chance. Yet, Israel with its consistent 8.5 human rights rating and full and equal citizenship for ALL people is racist? OK, you sure convinced me.
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Use your US passport instead then. After all, you have retained dual nationality, haven't you?
 
YMU, etc...

YMU:I] Correct, Israel has NEVER offered ALL "Palestinians" citizenship...WHY? Well, for starters, there were no Arab people known as "Palestinians" until AFTER 1948 [Israel's independance]. Secondly, those that were inside the Green Line [the Armistice line from the 48 War that was the de facto border of Israel] WERE offered it and most accepted. Those outside the line were supposed to have their very own nation so why would Israel even think to offer them anything? After 67, when those areas came under Israeli control, the lands were in dispute with the residents hostile towards Israel. Again, why would Israel even think to do that? to do so would mean annexation. surely you did not and do not favor annexatiojn...Or do you?

Your claim that 3% of Arabs residing in annxed E. Jerusalem accepted Israeli citizenship is nonsense. The correct figure was actually just over 14% and the remainder were under the extreme pressure of their militant so called leaders.

IDs "sotlen or destroyed by police?" NONSENSE.

Armed police roaming the streets? OF COURSE. See, when you have marauding militants trying to detonate infants it happens. They also roam Jewish areas so what is your real point?

II] Arab nations treat so called "Palestinians" terribly. YES. EXACTLY.

III] "Freedom of movement [of "Palestinians"] to other Arab nations requires the cooperation of Israel." Arabs living in PA lands do not need jack from Israel. Israeli-Arabs on the other hand very rarely seek the pleasure of traveling to those lands. When they do however it is almost those Arab nations that create the impediments, not Israel. most Israeli-Arabs arer seen as collaborators in the Arab world.

As the Israel is recognised by the UN to be the "occupying power" in "Palestine," it has an obligation under International Law to allow refugees to return and to not resettle foreign populations..." Israel, as long as it was tasked with maintaining soem semblance of peace in the so called "West Bank" and Gaza could just not let anyone who tried, cross into those two lands.

As for "resettlement," obviously Israel interpreted the situation differently. Personally, I wish that Israel had never iniated its program of securing its borders through resettlemnt but it did and that is what it is. At least Kadimah will take care of most of them within the next 2 to 3 years.

As for your supposed "Cornish Right of Return," yes, absolutely...IN CORNWALL!

Moono: "What does one mean by "worse" when they say that many "Palestinians" view other Arab nations as worse than Israel?" Let us just look at what they did to the "Palestinians" when they had a real shot at a thoroughly viable state; They browbeat them into refusal, then treated them as third class citizens when they were forced into refugee status from listening to them.
 
rachamim18 said:
YMU:I] Correct, Israel has NEVER offered ALL "Palestinians" citizenship...WHY? Well, for starters, there were no Arab people known as "Palestinians" until AFTER 1948 [Israel's independance]. Secondly, those that were inside the Green Line [the Armistice line from the 48 War that was the de facto border of Israel] WERE offered it and most accepted. Those outside the line were supposed to have their very own nation so why would Israel even think to offer them anything? After 67, when those areas came under Israeli control, the lands were in dispute with the residents hostile towards Israel. Again, why would Israel even think to do that? to do so would mean annexation. surely you did not and do not favor annexatiojn...Or do you?

Your claim that 3% of Arabs residing in annxed E. Jerusalem accepted Israeli citizenship is nonsense. The correct figure was actually just over 14% and the remainder were under the extreme pressure of their militant so called leaders.

IDs "sotlen or destroyed by police?" NONSENSE.

Armed police roaming the streets? OF COURSE. See, when you have marauding militants trying to detonate infants it happens. They also roam Jewish areas so what is your real point?

II] Arab nations treat so called "Palestinians" terribly. YES. EXACTLY.

III] "Freedom of movement [of "Palestinians"] to other Arab nations requires the cooperation of Israel." Arabs living in PA lands do not need jack from Israel. Israeli-Arabs on the other hand very rarely seek the pleasure of traveling to those lands. When they do however it is almost those Arab nations that create the impediments, not Israel. most Israeli-Arabs arer seen as collaborators in the Arab world.

As the Israel is recognised by the UN to be the "occupying power" in "Palestine," it has an obligation under International Law to allow refugees to return and to not resettle foreign populations..." Israel, as long as it was tasked with maintaining soem semblance of peace in the so called "West Bank" and Gaza could just not let anyone who tried, cross into those two lands.

As for "resettlement," obviously Israel interpreted the situation differently. Personally, I wish that Israel had never iniated its program of securing its borders through resettlemnt but it did and that is what it is. At least Kadimah will take care of most of them within the next 2 to 3 years.

As for your supposed "Cornish Right of Return," yes, absolutely...IN CORNWALL!

Moono: "What does one mean by "worse" when they say that many "Palestinians" view other Arab nations as worse than Israel?" Let us just look at what they did to the "Palestinians" when they had a real shot at a thoroughly viable state; They browbeat them into refusal, then treated them as third class citizens when they were forced into refugee status from listening to them.
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So why are you nicking water from the Palestinians?
 
Rachamim;
when those areas came under Israeli control, the lands were in dispute with the residents hostile towards Israel
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That is the slimiest coating I have ever seen applied to invasion and brutal subjugation.
You're improving, Rachamim, but the heyday of Israeli propaganda is over. No work for you there.
 
moono said:
That is the slimiest coating I have ever seen applied to invasion
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Still think Israel and the Arabs were to blame for Six Day War?

I prefer to blame neither -- it was without doubt the fault of the Soviet Union -- they started it by falsely accusing Israel of building forces against Syria.

The whole 6 Day War thing was a realpolitik attempt to increase Soviet influence in the Middle East, to get a strategic grip on oil reserves which were crucial to the US/Western economy.

1973 War was something similar -- the Soviets sensed that Washington was in turmoil over Watergate and end of Vietnam War, and decided to push Arab leaders to war at the weakest moment in modern US history.

The best things about this blame are:

1. It's true

2. Both sides hate the Soviets -- Jews hated it for anti-semitism, Muslims hated it because of its atheism and occupation of Muslim lands

3. Neither side is therefore to blame -- they were manipulated into war by an evil empire

If we take that assumption, we can decrease our hostility to one side or another.
 
If we take that assumption, we can decrease our hostility to one side or another.
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A really clever Dumpty wouldn't have increased hostility towards the Soviet Union as a side effect. Tch, tch.
 
moono said:
A really clever Dumpty wouldn't have increased hostility towards the Soviet Union as a side effect. Tch, tch.
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Very very hard to understand your point here. :rolleyes:

Considering that the Soviet Union ceased to exist about 15 years ago, I would have thought it made the perfect outlet for blame.

What are they going to do? Kill Brezhnev?

Sorry, but he's already dead.
 
rachamim18 said:
As for your supposed "Cornish Right of Return," yes, absolutely...IN CORNWALL!
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The Cornish, along with the Welsh and the Bretons (of Brittany, France) are the original Britons, Rach. The rest are recent invaders. I guess the point went right over your head though.
 
Astronaut;
What are they going to do? Kill Brezhnev?

Sorry, but he's already dead.
Click to expand...

Your juvenile interjections are increasing my hostility towards you. Be a good Dumpty and go and increase somebody else's hostility please.
 
Reply...

Panda: Yes, I do hold a US passport as well, ans yes I am a dual Israeli/American citizen. so what? Of course you use the issue to try and launch a personal attack instead of dealing with the real nature of my post whsih is, while people like you sit here and whine about make belive Israeli racism Israeli is a bastion of democracy and civlil rights surrounded by racist states...and nary a ward ftrom you and yours about it. why should I have to use a different passport when I hold one from a nation hours away? Why am I forbidden from wearing a Star of David around my neck if I choose to try and enter Arabia? Yet these issues attract 0 attention here.

Vimto: Nobody is stealing water from "Palestinians." There is no country known as "Palestine." There is territory of an envisoned state to be called "Palestine" but as of today, it is nothing but words and a bunch of wasted money.

As for olive groves being destroyed...Any grove that is held under CLEAR TITLE and is damged or destroyed is compensated at full and fair market value. Sometimes they must be damaged or destroyed in the process of counter terrorism or other security related concerns. As I said, in those cases the owner is compensated. If it s a grove that is illegally tended then the person who pretends they own it is not entitled to any compensation.

As for the "Barrier," it has been explained in many threads but I will vriefly address it again. In areas bordered by it, violent attacks have fallen by 90 plus percentage points and fatal attacks by 74 plus percentage points. It is a security "Barrier."

Astronaut: Wrong, Arabs are to blame. Yes the USSR manipulated its client states [and the client states most certainly did NOT hate it] but by the end of the first stage of the build up [by the time 'Amer mobilised Sinai] both Syria and Egypt weere under no illusions. Jordan also saw what was really at stake and actually tried to wiggle out of harms way but could not risk alienating its population.

YMU: Actually, Gaelic speakers might or mightnot be the original inhabitants since Gaelic culture stretched the lenght of Europe into present day Turkey but that does not really matter. Jews have been continuously living with a vibrant culture in that area...Gaelic speakers are extremely isoalted today and although soem here would love to argue it, one could hardly call Gaelic culture vibrant and viable. At least not in any way that would be recgnisable to the first Britons.
 
There's a country called Palestine alright, and it's a royal pain in the arse for Zionist extremists.
Palestinian farmers are refused permission to tend their farms and groves to the point where the Zionists declare the land 'abandoned' and misappropriate it. It's documented in the Israeli 'ethnic cleansing by stealth' thread. Rachamim has seen that, of course.
Sharon's Stockade has been condemned by the ICJ who ruled it should be torn down except where it existed inside Israeli territory. Its usefulness as anything other than a tool of theft is by no means guaged as the main implementors of bombing raids within Israel, Hamas, have maintained a ceasefire since August of 2004, long before the Stockade was anything like completed.
In short , more bollox from the liarboy.
 
moono said:
Your juvenile interjections are increasing my hostility towards you. Be a good Dumpty and go and increase somebody else's hostility please.
Click to expand...



So sorry. You shouldn't make utterly stupid comments about hating the Soviet Union.

BTW, judging by the ongoing dispute between you and tangentlama, I'm not the only one causing your hostility to increase.

I suggest you take a break -- you seem stressed.
 
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