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who is responsible for the London attacks?

kyser_soze said:
Don't talk bollox fela, you're always banging on about how USUK are the greatest danger to the planet, worse than the Chinese and every other oppressive regime in the world etc. Or are many of the things you've said on this topic subject to Fela's change-of-meaning rule?

And then when something like 7/7 happens you don't think 'Well that was to be expected given what the UK is doing in the rest of the world' it's 'Oh, it must be the govt or state that's responsible for this'
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"Don't talk bollox fela, you're always banging on about how USUK are the greatest danger to the planet, worse than the Chinese and every other oppressive regime in the world etc."

Yes, that's a fair summary of my position. But how, tell me mate, does that equal a 'BIG EVIL'?

I talk of what i see. And you summarised well what i see. But i don't do any low talk about what or what is not 'evil'.
 
kyser_soze said:
And then when something like 7/7 happens you don't think 'Well that was to be expected given what the UK is doing in the rest of the world' it's 'Oh, it must be the govt or state that's responsible for this'
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When they told me what had happened, my first thought was about the timing just after the olympics. My second thought was, it had been coming a long time since blair fucked over the nation he leads by hanging onto the US.

As for who actually did the bombings / blew themselves up, i haven't a clue. But when it comes to a chain of events resulting in those bombs in london, somewhere back along that chain is the US and/or UK elites and their own actions. Actions that don't result in 100 deaths, but measured in the several thousands.

To deny the bombings having a link to the british actions in iraq and afghanistan seems a naive view to take.
 
Ummm, I have no doubt in my mind that along with the wider aims of extremist Islam the main purpose of the London bombings is to 'punish' and/or 'message' Britain about Iraq, just as happened in Spain and via hostages in Iraq has happened to Italy. I'm not denying there's a link between the two.

What I'm denying (well not denying but as with 9/11 mentally filing under 'Could happen but most unlikely) is that there was a planned conspiracy involving elements of the British state security apparatus (or allied/satellite organisations), with wider knowledge and approval of elected representatives to explode bombs on public transport in London on the 7/7 and 21/7 with the intent of killing civilians, causing public disruption and a whole cascade of potential social tensions either in order to divert attention from Iraq or to impose stricter social controls such as ID cards, internment etc.

Which is what Bigfish and co are arguing; a position which you appear to support with rather more commitment than your rather mealy-mouthed 'chain ofd events' spiel in the post I'm replying to.
 
kyser_soze said:
Ummm, I have no doubt in my mind that along with the wider aims of extremist Islam the main purpose of the London bombings is to 'punish' and/or 'message' Britain about Iraq, just as happened in Spain and via hostages in Iraq has happened to Italy. I'm not denying there's a link between the two.
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Do you think there was any coherent thinking behind the attacks?

It could be a Colombine-like attack: a bunch of losers who feel alienated and angry and end up 'hitting out' in an effort to self-validate and bring some kind of 'meaning' to their lives? There may have been no connection to any international groups - they may well have studied everything on the internet and planned it all themselves with no connection with any wider political or terrorist groups. They don't even seem to have made any demands or published any agenda etc.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but it seems to be a possibility.
 
TJ, you have to understand that even if it was a bunch of dissaffected, isolated loons who did this, it's the message that is important - that no clear message has been delivered in order to settle debates like this is another aspect of the terror - uncertainty gives rise to speculation and assumption, and as we all know, assumption is the mother of all fuck ups.

Whether isolated or part of a larger group, there clearly WAS thinking behind this - the idea of creating a 'cross of fire' on 7/7 indicates symbolic thinking which for me at least, indicates deeper planning and preparation, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it is part of a wider, slow motion war that's been going on since the first WTC attack over a decade ago.
 
kyser_soze said:
Whether isolated or part of a larger group, there clearly WAS thinking behind this - the idea of creating a 'cross of fire' on 7/7 indicates symbolic thinking which for me at least, indicates deeper planning and preparation, and I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it is part of a wider, slow motion war that's been going on since the first WTC attack over a decade ago.
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What "cross of fire"? :confused:

Surely four attacks, where the attackers have all gone in different directions starting at the same point is going to end up in a vague 'cross' shape? What other shapes would you expect from four attacks? Are you using an underground map or a spacially correct one? If it was so important why didn't they go to static locations rather than set them off at the same time and take their chances on London Underground actually running at precise times (sorry but this isn't Japan where you can set your watch by the trains). Are you saying that having four bombs was symbolic? That 7/7 was symbolic? Come on, give me a break! :confused:

Why do most terrorist organisations - including Islamist ones - issue fatwas, demands, long rambling speeches and so forth? How hard would it have been for the 7/7 and 21/7 attackers to leave a note or send an email? Why assume that they have any coherent thinking or secific agenda behind their attacks, rather than just wanting to "hit out" in a vague and aimless way - a kind of angry 'revenge' perhaps?
 
What "cross of fire"?
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According to the website that talked about London 'burning and screaming' on the 7/7 the bombs were supposed to have made a cross of fire where they exploded. And this wouldn't just be a 'vague' cross shape (incidentally, 4 bombers are just as likely to make a square or other 4 sided object - they were going for 4 pointed)

7/7 was the day G8 started so there's a clear message there.

And you really don't get terrorism do you? Re-read your last paragraph and think about how letting your intended victims know your intentions before or after the event (beyond the global triumph of Islamist thought which is a strategic goal in the same way an anarcho-libertarian society is) will denigrate the aim of seeding FUD among a civilian population. By not issuing fatwahs, demands and rhetoric you increase the effectiveness of FUD.
 
kyser_soze said:
(incidentally, 4 bombers are just as likely to make a square or other 4 sided object - they were going for 4 pointed)
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Sorry ks, but wtf! An 'equal armed' cross = a "square" doesn't it? Do you mean a 'cross' like a crucifix or something? Have you got any links of a map showing this? It seems utterly spurious - how could they know where they were going to be at the time they all exploded the bombs? Tube trains often stop between stations and don't seem to run to any exact schedule. How would they know where they were while in the tunnels between stations? It just seems bizarre to claim there is any significance of the shape formed by the sites of the explosions - a far closer match is the *time* of the explosions.
7/7 was the day G8 started so there's a clear message there.
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So what is the "clear message"? And why not attack Edinburgh if you wanted to make it clear that you were attacking the G8?
And you really don't get terrorism do you? Re-read your last paragraph and think about how letting your intended victims know your intentions before or after the event (beyond the global triumph of Islamist thought which is a strategic goal in the same way an anarcho-libertarian society is) will denigrate the aim of seeding FUD among a civilian population. By not issuing fatwahs, demands and rhetoric you increase the effectiveness of FUD.
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Bin Laden has issue a fatwa tho': http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm and claimed responsibility for 9/11 (to use the most obvious example)
 
kyser_soze said:
According to the website that talked about London 'burning and screaming' on the 7/7 the bombs were supposed to have made a cross of fire where they exploded. And this wouldn't just be a 'vague' cross shape (incidentally, 4 bombers are just as likely to make a square or other 4 sided object - they were going for 4 pointed)
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Have a look at this BBC link and play the "ROUTES OF THE BOMBERS" animation. Frame 5 of 6 shows that the sites of the explosions are not in the shape of a cross: they are more or less in a line.

edit: link added: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/uk/05/london_blasts/html/bombers.stm
 
So what is the "clear message"? And why not attack Edinburgh if you wanted to make it clear that you were attacking the G8?
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Attacking the heart of one of the financial capitals of the world isn't a message?
 
TeeJay said:
Three of the four 7/7 bombs were not in the City
None of the 21/7 bombs were in the City
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You seriously think that anyone outside of London makes the disctinction between the square mile and the rest of the city? FFS, it's only really Londoners who bother with niceties like 'Westminster' and 'Lambeth' - unless it's a tourist spot (e.g. Brixton, Camden) it's all 'London'.

Blowing the bombs on the first day of the G8 conference could be done to disrupt the summit or coverage of the suimmit, to take advantage of the police redployment to Scotland but certainly it's a strangely auspiscious day to choose to blow some bombs up don't you think?

As for the actual positions of the bombers...I KNOW that they were all over the place, but then given that they were also expectig London to be burning, screaming and panicing don't you think they might just be a little bit overambitious in their planning and/or were simply unable to carry out the mission as poetry dictated? The INTENTION was to create this cross of fire.

Is there a reason you want to keep thinking this is some kind of revenge or isolated gang of nutters?
 
kyser_soze said:
You seriously think that anyone outside of London makes the disctinction between the square mile and the rest of the city?
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You seriously think that 7/7 and 21/7 were about financial targets?
The INTENTION was to create this cross of fire.
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What evidence do you have for that? Have you even looked at my link showing the actual locations of the attacks?
Is there a reason you want to keep thinking this is some kind of revenge or isolated gang of nutters?
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"I want to keep thinking"? Am I saying I know exactly what their intentions were? What actual evidence do we have? I am disputing that there is any clear message. I am saying that there isn't a clear message and it *may* even have been pretty aimless - ie just wanting to revenge deaths in the middle east generally or attack the west generally, rather than being part of any coherent strategy. This is possible, but I am not claiming that I know or that there is any evidnce yet of what they were thinking or hoping to achieve. I would be interested if you have any.
 
The best theory we can surmise for the bombings is that they were carried out by a group that allies itself loosely to the aims of Al-Queda., i.e. punish those who have harmed muslims/kick the West out of the holy land. Crosses of fire don't matter, that's just flowery nonsense.
 
Jo/Joe said:
The best theory we can surmise for the bombings is that they were carried out by a group that allies itself loosely to the aims of Al-Queda., i.e. punish those who have harmed muslims/kick the West out of the holy land. Crosses of fire don't matter, that's just flowery nonsense.
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And thats a nice flowery liberals reading of there objectives.

How about, a pan islamic society that inforces the rule of the Koran, where sodamittes are stoned, where no flesh is aloud to be shown , where the only public entertainment is public executions, tv is banned , music is banned, art that tries to show living thing, thats banned as well, woman back in the kitchin and if they have to go out , make shore there 3 paces behind a male member of there family. chopping the hands off people. killing of apsotates etc
 
gurrier said:
Thanks, I will. A guy on a website who doesn't understand the first thing about digital photography has *proved* that this photo is a forgery, most likely created in an underground mossad bunker in downing street. Although his only training is in selling shoes, he has managed to come up with irrefutable *mathematical proofs* involving some very difficult looking sums and lots of scientific sounding words that I don't understand. If there *really were* a bomb in that place, the floor would not have such smooth undulations. You see, the melting point of the tin-nickel alloy used in tube flooring is much higher temperature than a bomb can produce and the metal would shatter rather than melt in such a way. The only known substance that could produce that pattern is the highly secret chemical weapon that the illuminati have been mixing into airline fuel to placate the population.

The blue thing in the background is a prototype CIA underground wireless high frequency messaging device which is communicating with a sattelite from 2km underground by the way.
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That's funny...
Dilzyghirl was just saying exactly that as I was reading this thread!!!

Uncanny innit???
 
james_walsh said:
And thats a nice flowery liberals reading of there objectives.

How about, a pan islamic society that inforces the rule of the Koran, where sodamittes are stoned, where no flesh is aloud to be shown , where the only public entertainment is public executions, tv is banned , music is banned, art that tries to show living thing, thats banned as well, woman back in the kitchin and if they have to go out , make shore there 3 paces behind a male member of there family. chopping the hands off people. killing of apsotates etc
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How the fuck do you know that this is what motivated the 7/7 and the 21/7 attackers? How do you know it wasn't simply revenge for people killed in Iraq for example, or a message to "get out"? We don't yet know much about them at all, unless you have some source of infomation which I am sure you won't mind sharing with us all here.
 
hole in carriage floor

3.jpg


more pics ( :eek: )
 
That doesn't look like it has been blown up from below. Dr Jazzz I thought you (maybe someone else?) said that the bombs were planted underneath the trains?
 
DrJazzz said:
<pointless image>
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So what's your fucking point?
Spit it out.

Are you saying that there's an evil conspiracy afoot, and that the tube staff, forensic teams, police, emergency team, accident investigators, rail workers etc etc, are all in on it too?

Either fucking make your point and back it up with some meaningful proof or every single picture post you subsequently post here will be binned.
 
Oh look! That site hosting the stolen photo links to David "Bon Hope Is A Lizard" Icke.

And look! He's got a bonkers book planned:

"I am in the process of writing a book about my search for ultimate reality - something that unites or is superior to subjective or objective truth."
 
TeeJay said:
[derail] How was Offline ed? Sorry I couldn't make it this time. Good evening? [/derail]
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Fabulous thank you.

And I appreciated the support from lots of 'ordinary' Urbanites - both regulars and occasional posters - in relation to current events on these boards.
 
haven't spotted any reference to this stuff (based on searches on 'zambia' and 'haroon rashid aswat')...

a british national was arrested in zambia last week and is being questioned in relation to the 7 july bombs. haroon rashid aswat is alleged to have made more than 20 calls to two of the suspected bombers using a south african mobile phone, and to have visited all four of the presumed bombers in britain (or - in the words of the times, "Intelligence sources told The Times that during his stay in Britain Aswat visited the home towns of all four bombers as well as selecting targets in London."

he is being touted as the 'mastermind' of the bombings, and apparently also questioned in relation to a prospective 'jihadi training camp' in oregon(!)

msnbc says he was detained after a british tip-off, and that he is being/has been questioned by u.s. and british officials, though in other reports it's unclear who is questioning him - eg the times says uk and us "anti-terrorism investigators" are travelling to zambia to speak to him.

it seems he is the person who was claimed to have been arrested in pakistan (though this was then denied): eg

south african mail & guardian said:
Haroon Rashid Aswat was carrying a belt packed with explosives, a British passport and a substantial amount of cash when he was seized, according to intelligence sources in [pakistan].
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however, according to the guardian (uk), zambian officials are saying he entered their country from zimbabwe, whilst cnn and south africa's news24.com say he spent two weeks in south africa before entering zambia.

most news sources seem to agree that uk authorities are not keen on answering questions about aswat (eg referring enquiries to zambian officials (bloomberg), that uk high commission are still trying to get access to him (cnn/news24.com), that consular staff are trying to get access to him (times) etc).

guardian
times
bloomberg
news24.com
msnbc story
channel4 news

mail & guardian (s.a.) ('arrested in pakistan' claim story)

anyway, like i said, couldn't see anything up already, thought it was of interest.
 
editor said:
So what's your fucking point?
Spit it out.

Are you saying that there's an evil conspiracy afoot, and that the tube staff, forensic teams, police, emergency team, accident investigators, rail workers etc etc, are all in on it too?

Either fucking make your point and back it up with some meaningful proof or every single picture post you subsequently post here will be binned.
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What The FUck????

get a grip on yourself!!!!

There was a lot of discussion about the 'hole' in the tube carriage by many posters. I found a fucking photo of it so we could all see it. I haven't made any conclusion about it whatsoever. The ( :eek: ) referred to the grisly nature of the other photos.

It's outrageous that I post up a very pertinent picture which should be of interest to all and you are threatening to forbid me posting more, while you let other posters get away with all manner of stupid frivolous pictures likes bins and tinfoil hats ad infinitum. :rolleyes:

christ, you really take the fucking biscuit sometimes!
 
A training camp in Oregon? Would this be one of those places were you can pay to go and hunt deer with semi-automatic assault rifles?
 
TeeJay said:
That doesn't look like it has been blown up from below. Dr Jazzz I thought you (maybe someone else?) said that the bombs were planted underneath the trains?
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My initial thoughts are that I agree, it doesn't seem to suggest to me the bomb was outside the train, which was a possibility I was considering TeeJay. Photos are good evidence I reckon! :)
 
no, it's apparently (if you believe the spook-sourced stories) something haroon rashid aswat tried to set up with an american, james ujaama, but which was dropped. some of those other reports up there link it to abu hamza :eek: :D

cnn
 
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