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Barking: Greens splitting anti-BNP vote

But i didn't mention 'in terms of the ballot box'. What's going on?

This is primarily a thread about the fascist party and the best way of thwarting their electoral ambitions. non aligned community action can do loads and is worthwhile of itself anyway. But there is no way to see that it happens everywhere where they hope to win, and if they are defeated it will be by another political party.
 
It has taken off -the BNP have 2 MEPs and 50+ councillors.

That's a rubbish and dishonest answer. The left/@ is not and cannot tap into historic British racism and nationalism like the BNP are. We are talking about different things.

The IWCA cannot take off because it has no plan for growth beyond the 3 localities.
 
That's a rubbish and dishonest answer. The left/@ is not and cannot tap into historic British racism and nationalism like the BNP are. We are talking about different things.

The IWCA cannot take off because it has no plan for growth beyond the 3 localities.

IWCA may have factors preventing them getting lots of candidates off the ground. It is the model that matters. People's Alliance in Wigan are interesting, there are also candidates running in the NE around public service issues.

Ideally, TUSC would follow such a model, but almost certainly won't.
 
The people of Barking should not be denied the opportunity to vote green due to the presence of the BNP.
 
IWCA may have factors preventing them getting lots of candidates off the ground. It is the model that matters. People's Alliance in Wigan are interesting, there are also candidates running in the NE around public service issues.

Ideally, TUSC would follow such a model, but almost certainly won't.

Yeah, i'm gonna meet the main Wigan guy in the next week or 2, we've got a d8 fixed (not a romantic one).

Tbh I do not think small groups doing their thing are much use, the IWCA certainly isn't. What interests me is class struggle, political growth and movement. As I have indicated elsewhere, it is work on the connections between groups that is important. That much talked about but little practiced thing called SOLIDARITY. Groups MUST be able to conceive of growth beyond their forms without prejeudice (drop the precious parts of their identity), beyond their ideologies (cos lets face it, they're all shite/inadequate so far) or there is no hope.
 
Yeah, i'm gonna meet the main Wigan guy in the next week or 2, we've got a d8 fixed (not a romantic one).

Tbh I do not think small groups doing their thing are much use, the IWCA certainly isn't. What interests me is class struggle, political growth and movement. As I have indicated elsewhere, it is work on the connections between groups that is important. That much talked about but little practiced thing called SOLIDARITY. Groups MUST be able to conceive of growth beyond their forms without prejeudice (drop the precious parts of their identity), beyond their ideologies (cos lets face it, they're all shite/inadequate so far) or there is no hope.

I can see the case for a chartermark system emerging here
 
Hodge is said to have gone down like a lead balloon at the UAF conference, though the pedant in me knows that lead balloons go down very well :)
 
Nice spot by Ian:

UAF national conference:

Speakers at the conference included Margaret Hodge MP, Ken Livingstone, Dawn Butler MP, as well as Sabby Dhalu and Weyman Bennett from Unite Against Fascism. They stressed the importance of campaigning against the BNP in Barking, Stoke and other areas targeted by the fascists, while also mobilising to stop the threat of the English Defence League and other racist hooligan groups.

allied to the SWP call to vote labour last week...
 
Nice spot by Ian:

UAF national conference: allied to the SWP call to vote labour last week...

Thanks for posting that Butchers.

But what else did any expect from the 'new labour party's junior brigade, the the Utopian munchkins with a social democratic leadership ?

So now all their members, on minimum wage or student grants, will be contributing many happy hours of trolling around the estates, pity they have no money or they could just make large donations, save them a lot of footwear.
No wonder they wanted an ''unemployment' conference, a recruiting ploy, not that they will get much of a response.

So now they will spread the 'illusion' of a continuous labour party, but how will they explain the deaths of all those Iraqi and Afghans ?
How the continuity of Thatcher policies ?

An election that will possibly 'break the mould of politics', if the B.N.L.P. lose its the end for them, the resulting debts will cripple them, and their 'junior' brigade will go as well.....

Good to see the mask is slipping.
 
Thanks for posting that Butchers.

But what else did any expect from the 'new labour party's junior brigade, the the Utopian munchkins with a social democratic leadership ?

So now all their members, on minimum wage or student grants, will be contributing many happy hours of trolling around the estates, pity they have no money or they could just make large donations, save them a lot of footwear.
No wonder they wanted an ''unemployment' conference, a recruiting ploy, not that they will get much of a response.

So now they will spread the 'illusion' of a continuous labour party, but how will they explain the deaths of all those Iraqi and Afghans ?
How the continuity of Thatcher policies ?

An election that will possibly 'break the mould of politics', if the B.N.L.P. lose its the end for them, the resulting debts will cripple them, and their 'junior' brigade will go as well.....

Good to see the mask is slipping.

In English?
 
Nice spot by Ian:

UAF national conference:



allied to the SWP call to vote labour last week...
Dora Kaplan
February 11, 2010 at 10:45 pm It all makes sense. Where else can clapped out trots and tankies go for pleasant and well paid career opportunities…?

They know their chances of riding to state power on the back of a revolution are now finished. So it makes perfect sense for them to cultivate the TUC and labour party, where comfortable jobs are available for low ranking apparatchiks who are willing to toe the line.
what makes me laugh, is they actually believe this bollocks. what a bunch of conspiracy theory nutters. :D:D:D

Enter vp, Pickman's model stage right.;)
 
Rubbish - and just to emphasise their idiocy even further, they're launching a new initiative next week called EXPOSE, and whose fronting it? Peter bloody Hain.
 
I'm thinking more of traditionally Labour areas in the North of England where the fascists have made moderate gains.

I'm increasingly thinking that a small part of the turn toward the likes of the BNP in traditionally Labour areas is due to the impossibility of some of those former Labour voters bringing themselves to vote for the Conservative party, especially in the mining areas, where the Cons have buttfucked them for at least a century and a half.
 
Good point - look at Bolsover for example. A BNP councillor in Dennis Skinner's seat and 14% across the whole constituency in the euro elections!
 
No I'm not. But elections are clearly central to keeping fascists out of power or booting them out of power, because elections is how they get in.

Historically (and in the case of the BNP), that's not the case. It isn't about electoral politics as primarily a modality for gaining power (although seats in assemblies and parliaments help, in terms of publicity and networking), but as a modality for legitimating and disseminating their political ideas. It's not so much about "getting in" to seats as "getting in" to the public consciousness as a legitimate political choice.
They know that there's only a vanishingly small chance of the BNP ever being the elected government of the United Kingdom, and yet they still engage with electoral politics. Why, if not the above?
 
It tells me that the SWP do not hold sway over the UAF.

Speaking to an swp member recently, asking why it wasn't made clear on the UAF website, that the UAF is against the Banning of fascist parties. His answer was, " because even though that was the position of the swp, that argument hadn't been won. There are those in the UAF who support the banning of fascist parties." Those who believe SW run everything that is involved with, are just self delusional fuckwits. Didn't the same people say RESPECT was an swp front?
 
That's not exactly a very convincing argument, is it? It is a simple fact that in UAF the SWP can mobilise the forces to ensure that its position is carried any time. But because the other forces in UAF are big boys and girls who they want to keep united with, they often ddecide not to 'enforce' their position. So they dont even push it, they dont try to get it through. Why? Cos they're not really bothered, which, in practical effect means that they do work toward the enforcement of such bans, even whilst technically opposing them. Likewise a shit like Beckett, the SWP dont want to invite her, but are very happy for her to be invited. So they do nothing to oppose that invitation.

If you think either thing reflects well upon the SWP, or indicates the 'genuine independence' of UAF, then you are being jolly gullible.
 
Good point - look at Bolsover for example. A BNP councillor in Dennis Skinner's seat and 14% across the whole constituency in the euro elections!

You wouldn't think it possible, would you? :(

What originally gave me an inkling that this might be a factor, was talking to some (distant) relatives in Burslem about the BNP's popularity, and getting told, very plainly, that people couldn't vote Conservative, given the way coal and clay extraction and the potteries were treated under Thatcher and Major, and wouldn't vote new Labour because they felt betrayed. Now, I know that part of the world is fairly small "c" conservative anyway, but I have to say I could see the point being made, even if I didn't agree with it.
 
BNP appeal to a sense of marginalised w/c identity (albeit given particular ethnic spin - the "white working class") to an extent that the Tories can't given their history of hammering the same communities, and Labour have deliberately distanced themselves from.

There's also a "fuck the lot of you" factor in voting BNP - it's not difficult to see why it has emerged in a condition where the traditional w/c party is seen as having deliberately rejected people like this.
 
BNP appeal to a sense of marginalised w/c identity (albeit given particular ethnic spin - the "white working class") to an extent that the Tories can't given their history of hammering the same communities, and Labour have deliberately distanced themselves from.

There's also a "fuck the lot of you" factor in voting BNP - it's not difficult to see why it has emerged in a condition where the traditional w/c party is seen as having deliberately rejected people like this.

And the BNP will do fuck-all for them either, because the BNP aren't interested in the "white working class" as the "user base" for their political ambitions, they're interested in the legitimacy that can be derived from representing a section of the electorate (although not, if previous examples are indicative, of actually physically representing them at council meetings etc), of that legitimacy allowing them to appeal further afield class-wise, and of national politics being influenced/nudged rightwards due to their presence on the national political scene.
 
which is why the kind of UAF argument that runs "there not a proper political party like the rest" gets it totally arse about tit. Needs reversing - The BNP are as bankrupt as all the other main parties.

E2A: But this still leaves us with the question of how a real alternative is to be built, and from what base
 
which is why the kind of UAF argument that runs "there not a proper political party like the rest" gets it totally arse about tit.
And yet it's been the "mainstream" consensus in those left organisations that promote their versions of anti-fascism for a long time now.
It's like somewhere in the early 1990s, everything we learned in the 1970s about racist and fascist political groups got forgotten.
Needs reversing - The BNP are as bankrupt as all the other main parties.
Although they're quite happy to talk a good fight about how they're not neo-lib.
E2A: But this still leaves us with the question of how a real alternative is to be built, and from what base

At the lowest level where the BNP are active: The community building for itself. People must want to change themselves.

I know that sounds hopelessly Utopian to some, but the imposition of external political ideas doesn't generally work too well, and sometimes causes the opposite of the desired effect.
 
That's not exactly a very convincing argument, is it? It is a simple fact that in UAF the SWP can mobilise the forces to ensure that its position is carried any time. But because the other forces in UAF are big boys and girls who they want to keep united with, they often ddecide not to 'enforce' their position. So they dont even push it, they dont try to get it through. Why? Cos they're not really bothered, which, in practical effect means that they do work toward the enforcement of such bans, even whilst technically opposing them. Likewise a shit like Beckett, the SWP dont want to invite her, but are very happy for her to be invited. So they do nothing to oppose that invitation.

If you think either thing reflects well upon the SWP, or indicates the 'genuine independence' of UAF, then you are being jolly gullible.
The logic explained to swp new members, is that Socialists oppose the Banning of fascist parties partially out of self interest. Historically, laws designed for banning fascist parties, have always ended up being used against the left. Further, they explain to new members, partially self interest motivates opposition to any increase in state power, because any increase in state power will usually be used against the workers movement necessary, and revolutionary organizations. Rightly or wrongly, this is what they believe. And given that most people on here think the only interest of swp is the existence of swp, your statement "Cos they're not really bothered" seems illogical. Of course they are bothered about the possibility that the swp could be banned. And of course it concerns them that such powers would also be used against the wider labour movement. So why don't they enforce it?

I think partially you are correct. The REAL problem with the UAF, which rarely gets discussed on here, is that it isn't the ANL. What I mean by that, is that it isn't a mass rank and file organisation firmly rooted in the communities up and down the country. There isn't a counterbalance to the deadwood of the labour movement bureaucracy. If swp did impose too much, the bureaucracy would just walk, and there wouldn't be a united front. But more important than this, the SWP also believe 'the masses' to be reformist. In other words 'the masses' and a bureaucracy have politics to the right of swp, which need to be attracted to the united front. SW believe this will not be done by preempting the discussion and imposing a revolutionary perspective. To preempt the united front to a revolutionary perspective is seen as revolutionary sectarianism. And this is similar to the argument made in the socialist alliance. This is a recurring theme in the swp. This is why they are always going on about sectarianism. They genuinely believe that revolutionaries can not impose upon the reformist masses and bureaucracy a revolutionary perspective prior, that these arguments have to be won whilst in united action. 15 years this has been the stratergy, and it has failed in both anti-fascism and Politics/politics to build a mass rank and file organisation firmly rooted in the communities up and down the country, however much the SW revolutionaries have bent over backwards. Why? Because the swp is just want a small front, they can control, they can recruit from? Bollocks!
 
The logic explained to swp new members, is that Socialists oppose the Banning of fascist parties partially out of self interest. Historically, laws designed for banning fascist parties, have always ended up being used against the left. Further, they explain to new members, partially self interest motivates opposition to any increase in state power, because any increase in state power will usually be used against the workers movement necessary, and revolutionary organizations. Rightly or wrongly, this is what they believe. And given that most people on here think the only interest of swp is the existence of swp, your statement "Cos they're not really bothered" seems illogical. Of course they are bothered about the possibility that the swp could be banned. And of course it concerns them that such powers would also be used against the wider labour movement. So why don't they enforce it?

I think partially you are correct. The REAL problem with the UAF, which rarely gets discussed on here, is that it isn't the ANL. What I mean by that, is that it isn't a mass rank and file organisation firmly rooted in the communities up and down the country. There isn't a counterbalance to the deadwood of the labour movement bureaucracy. If swp did impose too much, the bureaucracy would just walk, and there wouldn't be a united front. But more important than this, the SWP also believe 'the masses' to be reformist. In other words 'the masses' and a bureaucracy have politics to the right of swp, which need to be attracted to the united front. SW believe this will not be done by preempting the discussion and imposing a revolutionary perspective. To preempt the united front to a revolutionary perspective is seen as revolutionary sectarianism. And this is similar to the argument made in the socialist alliance. This is a recurring theme in the swp. This is why they are always going on about sectarianism. They genuinely believe that revolutionaries can not impose upon the reformist masses and bureaucracy a revolutionary perspective prior, that these arguments have to be won whilst in united action. 15 years this has been the stratergy, and it has failed in both anti-fascism and Politics/politics to build a mass rank and file organisation firmly rooted in the communities up and down the country, however much the SW revolutionaries have bent over backwards. Why? Because the swp is just want a small front, they can control, they can recruit from? Bollocks!

My god, what an advert for the SWP's political education.
 
it's simply typical of the SWP's Janus like method of operating. Just enough to pull in the gullbile, like RMP3, and a nice face to attract the petty-bourgeoise bureaucrats and wadicals.
 
it's simply typical of the SWP's Janus like method of operating. Just enough to pull in the gullbile, like RMP3, and a nice face to attract the petty-bourgeoise bureaucrats and wadicals.

At least rmp3's little rant brought a chuckle to my lips, even if it was a wry chuckle at him rather than with him.
 
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