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Economy of Yugoslavia

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I have just been reading about the factory reclamations in Argentina, and noticed a reference to the Yugoslavian economy under Tito, saying, that in a similar fashion to worker self management in Argentina, Tito followed an economic policy of associated labour - managers of socially owned companies were supervised by workers councils, etc etc.

I was surprised that I had not heard about this before. Is this an example of a more authentic socialist economy?

Can anybody recommend any literature on this?
 
Heh, that was the best idea they ever had...

And it was - as butchers says - by the very nature of the system, top-down imposed, needless to say, as it was a stalinist society, i.e. the political sphere invented all the relationships within a society from itself.

But the potential of the idea remains. So much so that the rest of the world kept coming to YU to study it and try to help in any way they could.

Bloch and co., then Marcuse, Fromm and co., then the French, Italian and other greatest thinkers kept coming to YU and adding their voices to a need to radically democratise society alongside those lines, sure.

But as it was they couldn't really work against the system. I mean, what one did was to regularly go to the CP committee local offices to fetch their own opinion on things. There was no hiding from the CP, it was pervasive, as I said - no place that the CP did not inhabit... so even that was a thin veneer in the struggle for legitimacy...

The regime ultimately lost that one, to the detriment of all of us, I think. They were too small from the start, anyway...

But then again, they never really lived it, believed in it etc.
 
Whilst top-down and far from perfect, I think Tito's Yugoslavia was probably one of the better communist regimes to live under at the time - and a damn sight better than what they got when that fucker Milosovic took over.
 
Whilst top-down and far from perfect, I think Tito's Yugoslavia was probably one of the better communist regimes to live under at the time - and a damn sight better than what they got when that fucker Milosovic took over.

From what I have read - and that is not very much at all - it seems this way, at least until the 1970s.
 
From what I have read - and that is not very much at all - it seems this way, at least until the 1970s.

I'd certainly have rather lived in Yugoslavia than, say, Romania or Albania or Bulgaria at the time.

And, as I say, once Milosovic got his hands on the place, he managed to turn a reasonably-functioning state into a total and complete hellhole.
 
The most "loose" in those "communist" terms... [and nowt to do with "capitalism" FFS, bitch.... ermmm, pardon me - butch!!!:rolleyes::D]
 
The most "loose" in those "communist" terms...

Yes. For instance, Yugoslavians could traval and leave Yugoslavia freely and weren't subject to the sort of chronic shortages/bread queues etc that the rest of the communist world suffered.
 
Are you saying that you disagree with all theories of state-capitalism, or just as regards Yugoslavia?

No. That's too weak. I abhor them! They are as ridiculous as anything I have ever heard! People who spout this shit have no idea what they are talking about! And you can quote me on that!
 
Yes. For instance, Yugoslavians could traval and leave Yugoslavia freely and weren't subject to the sort of chronic shortages/bread queues etc that the rest of the communist world suffered.

I know. In some depth! I am from there.... Gawd help me...:rolleyes::hmm:
 
It has to do with the absence of any subjectivity on the part of individual/economy/bourgeois society - in sur-real socialism. The commodity paradigm is completely absent and so is the market, politically, too etc. etc.

With that stupid "theory" one can't begin understanding why, for instance, the "technological surplus" went up to a third of the workforce etc. etc.

It's preposterous...
 
I read this on another website once and found it sufficiently interesting to copy. There's much in it I disagree with, but it's worth reading all the same.

I lived in Skopje, capital of the then Socialist Republic of Macedonia, one of the constituent republics of the Yugoslav federation, for a year (1981). This was the year after Tito died and the year when the Albanian student demonstrations took place in Pristina, Kosovo. I am not saying that a year of living in one very distinctive part of the country makes me an expert, either on Macedonia, or on Yugoslavia as a whole, as it was then. But I make the following comments, limited though they are, on the basis of what I experienced in 1981, and read before and since, and many an argument with comrades over the years.

I first became interested in Yugoslavia in the mid 1970s and read everything I could lay my hands on, which was not much, at the time. I studied SerboCroatian (as it was called then) and Macedonian for years before I went to Macedonia.

I was (and still am) a socialist; based on my experience of living in the country, and observations of what was happening in the economy and politically, and the views of the people I lived with and mixed with (mostly university students but also people who were undoubtedly LCY functionaries, some people from villages and regional centres etc), Yugoslavia was in crisis. I reckon it had been on its last legs for ages and when Tito died, well, it was all downhill from then on.

It seems to me that when the self-managed socialist state could not guarantee the consistent production, distribution and supply to the population of basic consumer goods and services e.g. electricity for light and heating, milk, bread, sugar, coffee, meat, vegetables and fruit during winter, toilet paper, electric light globes, soap, detergent, tampons, sanitary pads etc etc etc etc etc, and people could only get these (consumer) things by going to Greece or wherever, or through hoarding and the black market, or personal connections with influential people ("vrski"), then a regime is in trouble. This "ekonomska kriza" was rampant in Macedonia in 1981 and I know there were similar problems in other parts of Yugoslavia, as these matters were discussed in the various Yugoslav newspapers.

My experience was that racism and nationalist extremism were widespread. I felt sorry for the African students and those from the Middle East, Palestine etc who were there in numbers studying at the University. There were Nigerians in my Macedonian language classes and I often used to walk with them into the American Information Centre in the city centre where you could borrow English language books, papers etc. It was quite common to have to endure shouts of "monkey!" for my friends and "prostitute! cunt!" for me. And before posters on this site get their knickers in a knot over this comment, I am merely citing it as evidence of the social tensions evident at the time; I am not so silly to believe that racism is worse in Macedonia than anywhere else.

The Macedonians I mixed with, in the main, seemed to hate Albanians, Turks and Roma with a passion, aped Serbs (sometimes speaking Serbian in preference to Macedonian) but resented their power, influence and political dominance in Yugoslavia as a whole, and their increasing presence in Macedonia, and resented the other Yugoslav national groups and republics. The Turks and others I knew seemed to reciprocate, but more reservedly. Hardly surprising, really.

The "ethnic" stratification of the labour market was clear: broadly speaking, Macedonians and Serbs held the "good" jobs (white collar, shops, banks, administration, academia etc). The hard, dirty menial jobs that I saw people doing, like cleaning, labouring, road-building, grass-cutting, ditch-digging etc were being done by Albanians and Roma. I presume that factory work was mainly the preserve of Macedonians. Needless to say, these were my impressions; I am not saying that this was the absolute defining truth of the situation. The housing conditions of many people, particularly Roma, were an eye-opener.

Most people froze if I tried to talk to them about local politics or society, or became very defensive. If people sensed any kind of criticism of conditions in Yugoslavia, they would attack ("Has your country ever suffered war?"). I later decided that students wouldn't talk to me because they had worked out I was a leftist and therefore not to be trusted; I was probably a spy in their eyes. The functionaries wouldn't discuss anything because they probably thought the same thing, or were afraid. It's a very hard thing to describe or identify, but I reckon that political fear was ever-present, and there is plenty of evidence of political suppression at all stages of the Yugoslav republic, and not just of reactionaries and counter-revolutionaries, either. I couldn't identify political engagement or interest on the part of the students I mixed with. Those students involved in the student LCY organisations were dismissed as opportunists on the few occasions when anyone was prepared to talk, or made an off-the-cuff remark. Only one or two people would talk at all, and they were very hostile to socialism, described it as "fascism" and wanted to emigrate. In fact, the one thing that people were prepared to talk about freely was money, how much of it I had, and how much of it they could get if they went to the West; a thoroughly understandable perspective. I'd estimate that the majority of people I met in the course of the year asked me to sponsor them to emigrate. I've never had so many marriage proposals in my life. People had madly idealised views of the West even though they were able to travel relatively freely (unlike others in the former Eastern bloc). I suppose, if they had relatives living overseas in wealthy countries, or if they could nick over the border to Austria or Italy or Greece and buy whatever they liked with their hoarded American dollars or German marks, or had the experience of working overseas in very developed, rich countries, who could blame them for making such a conclusion?

I think Yugoslavia died because the bulk of the people didn't believe in it any more. The economic problems I've described in Macedonia were common across the federation at various times but were naturally far less serious in the comparatively wealthy republics like Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia. Nonetheless, economic crises, really poor economic planning largely driven by the tensions between the federal system and the competition and resentments between the constutuent republics, political disengagement particularly by young people, rampant national chauvinism (and with at least 26 ethnic groups in the old Yugoslavia, there's plenty of potential there!)and inter-republic resentments and jealousies, obvious extremes of poverty and wealth, idealisation of the West, clashes between modernity and tradition, village and city, the rise of Serbian nationalism in the 1980s ......the influence of the Polish crisis and later, the final collapse of the old Soviet bloc, even though Yugoslavia wasn't part of it, and Western involvement...how could Yugoslavia survive?
 
It has to do with the absence of any subjectivity on the part of individual/economy/bourgeois society - in sur-real socialism. The commodity paradigm is completely absent and so is the market, politically, too etc. etc.

With that stupid "theory" one can't begin understanding why, for instance, the "technological surplus" went up to a third of the workforce etc. etc.

It's preposterous...

Did the commodity 'wage labour' exist?

The market didn't exist then in yugoslvia? Was there a stock market?
 
Eccchhhh...

Firstly, yes, there were and there are a lot of un- and under-educated poor sods in ex-YU. Prejudices normally start there. Especially now, with rampant nationalism [mixed with the typical machismo of the backward patriarchal kind] having taken "us" [South Slavs, conditionally - but not only Slavs, of course] to war on precisely such, conservative and I would argue narcissistic, self-centred, immature, superiority-driven, backward looking basis!!!

But there was also a mainstream argument [stemming from the system itself, from its inner logic] that saw the liberation movements anywhere in the world as emancipatory and hence in a kind of a brotherhood fashion it promoted and defended them at all levels: women [see the decline in their status with the onset of capitalism in those countires], blacks, minorities of all sorts, colonies fighting for self-governance, the Palestine liberation movement etc. etc. etc. All of those were officially advocated and practically supported on the basis of common Humanity and basic justice. Not all of ex quasi-socialist/communist "shite" was actually "shite", you know...

Within the ex-YU countries one can see such "stratification" in relation to Gypsies [the lowliest of the lot, akin to "niggers" for Southern American racists], then Albanians etc. Depending who "judges" [a nationalist Croat or a Serb] the Serbs or Croats are - of course - lamentable creatures and so on and so forth...

Still, my point being, one has to give account of all the elements of the system itself and how it reflected on its subjects [in the original, ancient meaning of the word], otherwise it seems quite anecdotal and misleading, maybe even completely meaningless...

=====================================================

@Butcher: no and no. As I stated, the whole set-up had nothing to do with the capitalist paradigm. What few elements of "freedom" there were for firms to decide what and how much to produce and how to deal with what they make etc. - was actually heavily controlled and planned. All the elements had such a meaning and a place in the Whole that the Whole gave them and they were totally dependent on the whim of the Whole.

For instance, Tito's cull of the "Liberals" [the new generation of post WW II (somewhat better educated) politicians, especially in Serbian CP], when he saw that the reforms in the sixties meant the power was becoming decentralised. It was just stopped. Something that can still happen in, for instance, China, given the right circumstances.

As I stated earlier, one went to the CP Committee to fetch one's thinking on a subject. Any subject of any importance.

That was just one side of it all.

The other had to do with the system itself, its structural side and how it created the society from within itself, by promoting certain values and giving additional value to fuller employment [over and above the needs of the technological process, subsidising it from the state level], social projects [buying the peace in a somewhat unholy alliance between the lower and higher echelons of society, as some ex-Soviet sociologists would suggest, for instance] and so on.

In fact, it was NOT essential to produce - not at all! By the very logic of the system itself it was essential for the power relationships to remain unchallenged. For those in comfy chairs to remain where they were. Production of surplus value was a sideline, which could but didn't have to be... Hence poverty, empty shops, emigration etc.

Essentially: production of surplus power, rather than surplus value, was the very essence, the pillar relationship of that society. And because of the above we called it "sur-real socialism". It really couldn't care about the real lives and needs of its people by its very logic. The "real" stuff it was all about was elsewhere.

Hence, the state capitalist "theory" misses everything about the place and can't even begin understanding it. Uterly ideologically blinkered position.

That paradigm resulted in an inordinate amount of fear and un-met needs. And hence it collapsed.

The developed, late industrial Capitalism, by definition, is doing much more that the bare minimum and the whole ballgame is rather different, then. I guess one could argue, like Kissinger did: "We're fighting ideas with standard".

That was not possible in quasi-communist countries, under the same presumptions.

Only the bare minimum was met and even that, for quite a time at a stretch, was not working either - and people were literally dying of hunger. The rhetoric of the system ["overtaking the capitalist West"] was just that!

It lasted for a while, sure - until the essential emancipatory potential of the initial idea of communism was spent and the legitimacy of the system itself was irretrievably lost, under the enormous weight of evidence which pressed on way too many subjects of such regimes. Suddenly, it was not able to control/manipulate the huge majority...
 
Surely to the questions 'Did the commodity 'wage labour' exist?

The market didn't exist then in yugoslvia? Was there a stock market'? you mean yes, not no?

And sure, the primary concern of the state (note i say state) was the maintenance of power - that in no way means that capitalism could not/was not one of the elements of that. In fact that's a characteristic of all capitalist states, not something exceptional to the FRY. Power relationships are tied up entirely with power relationships as well - it was neccesary to produce, firstly to maintain the existing power relationships. How long do regimes seen as unable to provide for their populations last? That's why the labour markets and border were relaxed, why foreign investment was welcopmed and a stiock market esatblised in the 1960s.

You're isolating one single aspect and elavating it to a single explanatory fact, and you're abstracting it from or ignoring the other determinants of it.

I can't see what you're offering above against the idea of the FRY (and eastern bloc countries) as being capitalist other than they were about power. Well, sure they were, so is capitalism. Did elements of classical and modern capitlaism exist in the FRY. Yes. Did the state try to utilise those elements to maintain its own ascendancy - yes it did.
 
No, you don't get it, Butch!

Capitalist state maintains power in the interest of Capital but the direct link is severed. One, then, must show which mechanisms of mediation are necessary for them to maintain their [capitalists] influence, as they have no direct power automatically. That's the essence of Modernity, as opposed to Feudalism! The same law, in principle, applies to all. All have the same basic rights. A fallen capitalist is no longer a capitalist but a prole. All have a single vote, even though it didn't start like that, even though it had to be fought for - that was the potential of Modernity, which, as it happens, was unstoppable!

The direct connection between ownership and power characterises Feudalism. So much so that some interpreters claim that the land owns the owner, as it were; the feudal lord almost being an appendix to it. Mottled law applies, depending on one's estate. A fallen, impoverished feudal lord is still a feudal lord and a different law applies to him/her, so s/he is punished differently for the same crime committed, as opposed to a peasant or a member of the clergy.

In sur-real Socialism it's the other way round: he who has power has ownership. He who suddenly finds himself "out of power" can't get onboard a tram without a "proper connection", as it were, let alone get any "rights" recognised or enforced!

That is the single most "decisive element", the pillar relationship, the essence of that society, yes! It produces, moulds, controls etc. all other relationships from within itself. The production of surplus power is the very core of China, North Korea, Cuba, Vietnam, as it was for CCCP or SFR YU.

That is what I mean and that is what I say. Now, stop trying to be clever beyond your present limitation on the subject, it's quite unbecoming! Go and study first - in order to be able to understand it properly - and then come back and pose a question, if you have it. I'll be happy to assist if I can/if I know.

But this is getting silly, as it's a night in which all cows are black. Well, guess what: no surprise... All states are the same then, all epochs are the same, there were no essential developments, i.e. advances, it was all in vain, it's all hopeless etc. etc.

There are essential differences in the structure of those epochs/societies. You must study further in order to be able to understand what you read - critically, that is...

A hint, as already partially explained [which is much more than you normally care to explain, yourself, coming all criptically short and enigmatic!!!]: start with the different notions of ownership and the appropriate relationship of bourgeois society and political state in Feudalism, then Modernity and only then can you understand the essential difference between sur-real Socialism and the previous two societies!

Now, you would say "case closed" or some such shitty and arrogant rubbish. I won't. I said "I will help you if I can/if I know, once you study systematically and carefully, and then come back with questions suggesting you made an effort". As any of us have to, if we are to be taken seriously.

You have shown a clear lack of essential knowledge in the area, which to me, a professional in the area, is all to obvious. That, by the way, is something I studied for decades, having been properly helped by the best minds in the area, having done it in a systematic manner and having been tested time and time and time again. I also dedicated my life to understanding it, I invested my activist days to it, I know it inside out, as I lived it, I grew up in it and then I lived here, in the UK, and studied it also [still am], and can compare the two properly, as you can see, and so on...

Once again, I can assist - as you can possibly guess - but the rest is up to you. You must be able to dig deep somewhere inside of yourself and to find/understand you have limitations and that some must be more knowledgeable in the area than you. The Q is: is it too much for your vanity to admit to it and open your heart and mind? Too many issues to allow it?

Well, we'll see...
 
Jeus wept :D

OK, if you don't want to engage with my points, instead choosing to mildy brush past one then just jump into 'i know more than you about this' (which, btw, you don't, you're stuck in the 1950s and the frankfurt bog).
 
Yayks!:rolleyes:

That was fast for someone who says I didn't consider anything he wrote. :rolleyes:

[FYI, I know all those arguments you mentioned inside out. You, on the other hand, have never heard mine, so there!]

But am I surprised? Am I fook!!!:rolleyes:

OKI...:rolleyes: Then, piss off, you arrogant twat! And stop jerking off in front of a mirror, as it were...:D
 
I read your post, all you did was re-state your power argument. You didn't engage with my argument that power is one component part of wider relations, (at times it may be the key one), but that this is true of capitalist states too, and that the power elite you mention actually used capitalism to bolster their power. You're stuck in a 1950s totalitarian pardigm long jettisoned by 'professionals in the field'.

Then you basically went onto say that i had no right to disagree with you. Doesn't work that way prof and never will. Nice practical insight into the (attempted) operations of power though eh ;)
 
You didn't have the time to consider it properly, it was so fast, after I posted it! Besides, to you this is something new. To me this is the same old same old.

Anyway, I expanded and compared various epochs and gave you many hints as to their essential differences. In good faith, spending some time explaining the ABC to you, btw!!

Now go away!:rolleyes:
 
Have another look at your post. You restated the power argument, added a bit of crude periodisation (by single characterisrtic!) then told me i'm not clever enough to argue with you.

You didn't mention any theories of state capitalism, you didn't touch on wage labour or the market, you didn't go near any historic facts about the FRY. You, in fact, almost totally ignored my reply.

Oh well, i shouldn't expect anything from profs. I shall wend my lonely way to enlightnment alone.
 
I can sense you writing a bizzare piece even as i type by the way gorksi. I hope it's a bit calmer than your earlier efforts. Just to remind you, please touch on the things that i mentioned above. Ta.
 
I said UNINFORMED, you arrogant twat with a chip on his shoulder the size of Manhattan!!!:rolleyes: A slight difference!:p Lost on you, in your chiped-ness...:D

Now, please go away!:rolleyes: With all your prejudices intact... Now, there's a good lad, at peace with himself, no need to disturb anything, no new creases, no holes, nothing to be concerned about, for as long as we have our peace, jolly good!!:p
 
Exactly, it's just like it was in the 1950s when enounter told us all about totalitarianism. no need to disturb anything, no new creases, no holes, nothings changed.
 
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