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Tribune article on immigration etc

D

durruti02

love and rage!
interesting article/statement put out by Tibune on immigration .. lots of good stuff but i still can not understnd how they are so un-marxist (well i guess its only tribune!!) as to not ASK or SEE WHY Labour has changed/encouraged immigration or how they can fail to include that while in the 7ts there was virtually zero unemployment now there is between 3 and 4 million ..

http://www.tribweb.co.uk/tribune04082006.htm

one cnp

" .. For one thing, relying on the economic argument to make the main case for progressive immigration policies has been a mistake.

While the statistics all show that the migration of the past decade has led to increases in economic growth rates and made a positive contribution to welfare spending, the suspicion remains that these benefits are unevenly distributed across society.

It might be the case that some sections of the settled population, "old" immigrants as well as some white working-class communities, have done less well in situations where new immigrants have produced competition for scarce local jobs and housing..."


" .. it might be the case .." doh sherlock!:rolleyes:
 
Its sad that article.....It again shows up the fact that large sections of the UK left are so shit when it comes to Internationalism......Its as though most of them have never considered the effects of migration on poorer countries......Like they really dont even give a shit.......

The Little Britain Left are just too busy congratulating themselves on how nice they are to immigrants to actually consider what mass migration means to people left behind in countries where skilled workers have all gone west.....
 
durruti02 said:
as to not ASK or SEE WHY Labour has changed/encouraged immigration
Click to expand...

Why do you think inward immigration has been so high under Labour (latest net annual figure I have seen is over 200,000)?
 
Furtwangler said:
Why do you think inward immigration has been so high under Labour (latest net annual figure I have seen is over 200,000)?
Click to expand...


absolutely as part of a capitalist /neo liberal agenda to cut wages/undercut union organisation etc etc ...
 
That's part of the reason for sure, maybe a very big part.

But also think Labour were caught unawares by the fallout from the wars in Yugoslavia, Kosovo etc, plus general Home Office inertia and fear of point-and-splutter 'You're a racist!' accusations.

Be that as it may, class is now no longer seen as the primary social fact, thanks to mass immigration. Ethnicity is. Someone somewhere probably sees that as a result.
 
tbaldwin said:
Its as though most of them have never considered the effects of migration on poorer countries......Like they really dont even give a shit.......

The Little Britain Left are just too busy congratulating themselves on how nice they are to immigrants to actually consider what mass migration means to people left behind in countries where skilled workers have all gone west.....
Click to expand...

What does it mean? In many (most?) cases it means the chance to send money home and save for a better future for the migrant worker's family, does it not?
 
Spion said:
What does it mean? In many (most?) cases it means the chance to send money home and save for a better future for the migrant worker's family, does it not?
Click to expand...

There was a report a couple of weeks back indicating that the amount of money sent back to developing countries by migrant workers now massively outstrips governments' aid budgets.

But that'll be complicating the issue with messy "facts", so probably best to leave well alone.:rolleyes:
 
Furtwangler said:
Be that as it may, class is now no longer seen as the primary social fact, thanks to mass immigration.
Click to expand...

"Thanks to mass migration"? Not at all thanks to the fact that the Labour movement in this country has basically held its hands up, said "fair enough- game over" and swallowed the post-Thatcher consensus wholesale?
 
durruti02 said:
while in the 7ts there was virtually zero unemployment now there is between 3 and 4 million ..
Click to expand...
are you trying to come up with the most absurd statement you can d? because by almost any measure unemployment today is roughly equal to what it was throughout most of the seventies. And yes, that does include the 'hidden' unemployed on disability benefits and crappy schemes, they existed then too y'know.


aah, but that doesnt fit with your thesis does it......
 
Pigeon: True, but the most decisive battles on those fronts were fought in the 1980s.

I'm pessimistic by nature, but the rise of politics determined in part by ethnic competition for resources in this country now seems almost inevitable. With demographic change comes political change, sooner or later.

But the worst-case situations might still be avoided if mass immigration were scaled back in a big way.
 
Furtwangler said:
I'm pessimistic by nature, but the rise of politics determined in part by ethnic competition for resources in this country now seems almost inevitable.
Click to expand...

So how do you explain the fact that the most rapidly increasing ethnic minority group is mixed race?
 
Because the mixed race category was included in the 2001 Census, but not the 1991 Census? Hence an 'increase' from zero to 0.7 million in ten years. But I don't doubt that in reality numbers of mixed-race people are increasing.

I'll make a guess at what you're getting at: the idea is that people will at least interbreed (if not intermarry) at such a high rate that this will counterbalance high ongoing immigration, a 'mix on contact' principle.

Three problems with this.

First, ethnic groups are not all equally exogamous (i.e. they don't all form relationships and have children with people from other ethnic groups at the same rate).

Second, different ethnic groups don't disperse themselves evenly around the country. They tend to cluster.

Third, ethnic groups differ considerably in average lifetime fertility rates.
 
Pigeon said:
There was a report a couple of weeks back indicating that the amount of money sent back to developing countries by migrant workers now massively outstrips governments' aid budgets.

But that'll be complicating the issue with messy "facts", so probably best to leave well alone.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...


The trickle down economic theory is not one that ive ever ignored.....The it must be OK cos they send money home to their families arguement has an obvious appeal for Liberals.....
But the fact is that people sending money home to families in Poland or India or Cuba creates more problems than it solves....
Is the best the Liberal left can come up with an arguement that says " Oh never mind all the skilled workers teachers,nurses,doctors have gone cos they have sent money back to their families.......What utter TORY SHIT....
 
tbaldwin said:
The trickle down economic theory is not one that ive ever ignored.....The it must be OK cos they send money home to their families arguement has an obvious appeal for Liberals.....
Click to expand...

Point I made is that the money they send home outstrips Government aid: it's that old response to inequality thing that you seem to be unable to take into your poor addled pea-brain no matter how often it gets stressed.

tbaldwin said:
But the fact is that people sending money home to families in Poland or India or Cuba creates more problems than it solves....
Click to expand...

A "fact" in the sense that it's objectively true? Or one of those patented tbaldwin "facts" that EVERYBODY KNOWS without having to deal with tiresome bourgeois details like evidence? Shame that the dumb peasants who insist on supporting their families through migration are just too fucking thick to make their own decisions about where their communities' best interests lie, eh? Perhaps they need re-education from a LIBERAL SUPREMACIST, not unlike your good self.:rolleyes:
 
Pigeon said:
Point I made is that the money they send home outstrips Government aid: it's that old response to inequality thing that you seem to be unable to take into your poor addled pea-brain no matter how often it gets stressed.



A "fact" in the sense that it's objectively true? Or one of those patented tbaldwin "facts" that EVERYBODY KNOWS without having to deal with tiresome bourgeois details like evidence? Shame that the dumb peasants who insist on supporting their families through migration are just too fucking thick to make their own decisions about where their communities' best interests lie, eh? Perhaps they need re-education from a LIBERAL SUPREMACIST, not unlike your good self.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...


1 Pigeon so just to make sure my poor addle pea brain has got it right? You think that migrants sending money home OUTWEIGHS the damage done in countries that see nearly all their skilled workers leaving?????

2 If i was able to leave South Africa etc and work in the US/UK as a teacher doctor etc.....I would......I am not criticising anyone for it.....But on a wider political level the consequences make the world a more unequal place..

Do you still not Understand what im saying?
 
tbaldwin said:
1 Pigeon so just to make sure my poor addle pea brain has got it right? You think that migrants sending money home OUTWEIGHS the damage done in countries that see nearly all their skilled workers leaving?????
Click to expand...

"Nearly all"?



tbaldwin said:
But on a wider political level the consequences make the world a more unequal place..
Click to expand...

Cart, meet Mr Horse.:rolleyes:
 
tbaldwin said:
Pigeon.....You really havent given the issue any thought have you?
Click to expand...

Mother of christ, baldwin- get a grip.

Even by your pisspoor standards, that is one lame fucking retort.:D
 
tbaldwin said:
But the fact is that people sending money home to families in Poland or India or Cuba creates more problems than it solves........
Click to expand...
Such as? Can you give us some examples instead of simple assertions?
 
Spion said:
Such as? Can you give us some examples instead of simple assertions?
Click to expand...


Spion sorry i would have thought it was obvious even to someone like Pigeon......But crikey......................................................Sending money home creates more divisions in countries like Cuba where some get dollars from the US and some dont......
It creates more divisions in Africa and Asia.........Crikey do people really not UNDERSTAND this?
 
Pigeon said:
Mother of christ, baldwin- get a grip.

Even by your pisspoor standards, that is one lame fucking retort.:D
Click to expand...


Pigeon put yourself in the place of someone who needs to see a Doctor in an African country.......The shortage of Doctors mean they die......Should there family.... A Thank god that people like Pigeon backed Free market migration policies that meant Doctors could go and work in the UK....
Or B Hope that the West stops taking all their skilled workers?
 
tbaldwin said:
Spion sorry i would have thought it was obvious even to someone like Pigeon......But crikey......................................................Sending money home creates more divisions in countries like Cuba where some get dollars from the US and some dont......
It creates more divisions in Africa and Asia.........Crikey do people really not UNDERSTAND this?
Click to expand...

Do you have any links to articles on this phenomenon or have you just made it up?
 
tbaldwin said:
Pigeon put yourself in the place of someone who needs to see a Doctor in an African country.......The shortage of Doctors mean they die......Should there family.... A Thank god that people like Pigeon backed Free market migration policies that meant Doctors could go and work in the UK....
Or B Hope that the West stops taking all their skilled workers?
Click to expand...

You really do have a fuckin Janet and John analysis of world economics, don't you? Do you imagine free healthcare would miraculously become available in the 3rd world if therewas no migration?

FYI, baldwin, the chief healthcare problem that people in Africa have isn't shortage of doctors as such: as the Home Office reminds me on practically a daily basis, healthcare is widely available in most countries...to those who can afford it.

And that's the problem:-grinding poverty and a lack of decent infrastructures which combine to ensure that people can't get the necessities of daily life for temselves or their children.

Some lucky ones manage to afford the treatment they need, possibly because someone else has fled abroad and helps them pay for it : the luckier still might manage to get away themselves. Which leaves the majority of the rest fucked.

It's a grotesque and obscene situation, which no sane human being would compound by suggesting that it's "caused by" immigration.
 
The British Medical Journal has referred to the 'poaching' of medical staff from poor countries which can ill-afford to lose them.

Cited in an interesting article here:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/braindrain/

Some good links at the bottom, esp Chapter 5 of the World Health Organisation report which deals with this issue. Bottom line: some countries eg Philippines, Cuba do OK out of exporting medical staff on a managed temporary basis, as distinct from countries facing long-term/permanent staff losses from pools of health workers which are small in the first place.
 
Pigeon said:
You really do have a fuckin Janet and John analysis of world economics, don't you? Do you imagine free healthcare would miraculously become available in the 3rd world if therewas no migration?

FYI, baldwin, the chief healthcare problem that people in Africa have isn't shortage of doctors as such: as the Home Office reminds me on practically a daily basis, healthcare is widely available in most countries...to those who can afford it.

And that's the problem:-grinding poverty and a lack of decent infrastructures which combine to ensure that people can't get the necessities of daily life for temselves or their children.

Some lucky ones manage to afford the treatment they need, possibly because someone else has fled abroad and helps them pay for it : the luckier still might manage to get away themselves. Which leaves the majority of the rest fucked.

It's a grotesque and obscene situation, which no sane human being would compound by suggesting that it's "caused by" immigration.
Click to expand...


No sane person thinks its SOLELY caused by Immigration but no rational person could possibly think that taking skilled workers from developing countries would help them develop.....

Your arguements are IMPERIALISTIC trickle down economics......
You want opportunites for the lucky few and think that MAYBE JUST MAYBE that this will have a knock on effect for other people........
It is such an incredibly stupid arguement to be honest i really cant believe youve fallen for it.
 
Furtwangler said:
The British Medical Journal has referred to the 'poaching' of medical staff from poor countries which can ill-afford to lose them.

Cited in an interesting article here:

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Development/braindrain/
Click to expand...

From the same piece:

A major reason for the declining health services in poor countries has been the Structural Adjustment Programmes imposed by richer countries and international institutions, which have contributed to the brain drain, so to speak. The small amount that the rich countries do allow the poor to spend on health is now lost to the already rich and the poor have to bear the burden
 
tbaldwin said:
You want opportunites for the lucky few and think that MAYBE JUST MAYBE that this will have a knock on effect for other people........
Click to expand...

Actually, Mystic Meg, I fail to see how you could possibly be in a position to pass judgment on what I "want" from my commentary on what we've "got".

But if you want to believe 3rd World poverty is All My Fault, fine; hope it makes life easier.

In the meantime, you can carry on disappearing up yer own virtual rectum by posting sneery guff about LIBERAL SUPREMACISTS who don't trust the masses, while passing judgement on those members of the international "masses" who try to make informed decisions about the best course of action for their families and themselves in the here and now.
 
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