Did Palestine really exist?
- Thread starter Gmart
- Start date
Lol. So, despite inter-Semitic disagreement ( 
) all Semites survive to the present day. Those that have been displaced by a post-war influx of non-Semites have an iron-clad case for returning to their homes and then all will be rosy in Palestine. They might even let the non-Semites stay.
Ace. Good thread.
) all Semites survive to the present day. Those that have been displaced by a post-war influx of non-Semites have an iron-clad case for returning to their homes and then all will be rosy in Palestine. They might even let the non-Semites stay. Ace. Good thread.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
does anyone know how old mustawtanaat is??
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
Are you really arguing that tribal origins in the Middle East 2000 years ago (and prior to that, in Africa) has more cultural significance than centuries of cultural influence in Europe? That the semitic origins of the Jewish people is a stronger influence on their agricultural and social expectations than the European roots of the Zionist movement?rachamim18 said:
Are you aware that most Sephardim (non-Ashkenazi Jews), especially the Mizrahim (Arab Jews) were not originally included in the plans for the Zionist state planned by the Ashkenazim (European Jews)?
-----
Regarding the semantic argument going on above, I'm not sure it matters what a word means as long as the intended meaning is understood. It's a bit of a distraction to argue a point based on the use of the word "anti-semite" when the intended meaning was clearly "anti-Jewish".
It's also incorrect to think of Arabs and Jews as different groups, as there are Arab Jews, sometimes called the Mizrahi.
Well guys, moono, garf, etc., sorry to disappoint you, but you are in the minority, IN THE REAL WORLD, anti-Semitism refers to hatred of Jews -- no matter how much you babies cry about it. Get used to it. Frankly, your attempt to hijack the term has already failed -- the pack of you are fucking too stupid to recognize reality.
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
Well i would take anti semitism to mean a posh word for hating jews .Arabs are hard done by just having to make do with plain old racisim .Palestine may never have exsisted as a proper country ,but,people who lived there did and some sort of settlement must take this into account .
GMarthews
GMarthews: An entity must exist in order to be "invaded"
What "sources" claim that "people" in "Palestine" were colloquially referred to as "Palestinians" "as far back as 1700?" It is interesting that you chose the word "people" as opposed to just "Arabs" In fact, from time to time, all people in that region were referred to as "Palestinians" regardless of their ethnicity. However, the people themselves did no such thing If they had any type of identity beyond village, clan, or tribe it was as a "Southern Syrian" or "Egyptian" depending which part of the province they resided in.
SOME Jews and "Palestinians" ARE gentically very similar to the point of common bonds. In fact a tiny perecentage of "Palestinians" are in fact directly descended from indigenous inhabitants [i.e. Jews] who converted to Islam somewhere along the way. However, by and large they are two distinctly different people. If you would like to fully explore the issue in a non-partisan manner, refer to "Y Chromosomal " studies and other gene haplotype studies.
As for the Ottomans being aloof as to what was going on in their territories, including "Palestine," of course they were. However, their system of rule was highly effcient and as long as the people were pacified and the revenue and taxes unimpeded, it ran smoothly with little fuss and fanfare Anyway, what does it have to do with anything?
You seem to be confused about Israel. It has no official religion. It is a Jewish nation but Jewish in this sense means culture, not religion. All religions have full and equal protection. Scripture played no part in Israel's REestablishment, nor in its ideology.
You also seem to be confused about "Palestnians" and "sraeli-Arabs" They are two different demographics. The latter, numberng more than 1.1 million live within Israel Proper and are full and equal citizens of the state, while "Palestinians" are residents of the so called "Territories" and are not citizens at all. the only way to afford them citizenship would be to annex their territory which of course is against their wishes, as well as aginst the interests of Israel. However, they are still afforded full civil rights and have the protections that every sraeli citizen enjoys
GMarthews: An entity must exist in order to be "invaded"
What "sources" claim that "people" in "Palestine" were colloquially referred to as "Palestinians" "as far back as 1700?" It is interesting that you chose the word "people" as opposed to just "Arabs" In fact, from time to time, all people in that region were referred to as "Palestinians" regardless of their ethnicity. However, the people themselves did no such thing If they had any type of identity beyond village, clan, or tribe it was as a "Southern Syrian" or "Egyptian" depending which part of the province they resided in.
SOME Jews and "Palestinians" ARE gentically very similar to the point of common bonds. In fact a tiny perecentage of "Palestinians" are in fact directly descended from indigenous inhabitants [i.e. Jews] who converted to Islam somewhere along the way. However, by and large they are two distinctly different people. If you would like to fully explore the issue in a non-partisan manner, refer to "Y Chromosomal " studies and other gene haplotype studies.
As for the Ottomans being aloof as to what was going on in their territories, including "Palestine," of course they were. However, their system of rule was highly effcient and as long as the people were pacified and the revenue and taxes unimpeded, it ran smoothly with little fuss and fanfare Anyway, what does it have to do with anything?
You seem to be confused about Israel. It has no official religion. It is a Jewish nation but Jewish in this sense means culture, not religion. All religions have full and equal protection. Scripture played no part in Israel's REestablishment, nor in its ideology.
You also seem to be confused about "Palestnians" and "sraeli-Arabs" They are two different demographics. The latter, numberng more than 1.1 million live within Israel Proper and are full and equal citizens of the state, while "Palestinians" are residents of the so called "Territories" and are not citizens at all. the only way to afford them citizenship would be to annex their territory which of course is against their wishes, as well as aginst the interests of Israel. However, they are still afforded full civil rights and have the protections that every sraeli citizen enjoys
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Fucks sake, you and your ethnocentricity.
DylanRD;
Well, now you know it's the wrong word. It's a misnomer, Semites being all peoples indigenous to the region.
It's not the first example of misnomers for the sake of facility. They get corrected with pressure. Posh peeps do the 'dysoning', for example, and leave the 'hoovering' to the masses.
Well, now you know it's the wrong word. It's a misnomer, Semites being all peoples indigenous to the region.
It's not the first example of misnomers for the sake of facility. They get corrected with pressure. Posh peeps do the 'dysoning', for example, and leave the 'hoovering' to the masses.
moono said:DylanRD;
Well, now you know it's the wrong word. It's a misnomer, Semites being all peoples indigenous to the region.
It's not the first example of misnomers for the sake of facility. They get corrected with pressure. Posh peeps do the 'dysoning', for example, and leave the 'hoovering' to the masses.
Don't listen to this racist individual -- anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews.
munkeeunit
sumptuous lushness
You know, if you throw around accusations of racism too casually, it weakens as an accusation, which is very unfortunate. Save it for the neo-nazi organisations who really do hide behind anti-zionism.
All you are doing is making it appear than anyone who disagrees with you will be slandered as a racist, and *that* is what weakens opinion against, and the definition of, anti-semitism.
All you are doing is making it appear than anyone who disagrees with you will be slandered as a racist, and *that* is what weakens opinion against, and the definition of, anti-semitism.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
dont listen to anyone but astronaut in fact! everyone else in the world is a liar and a racist!astronaut said:
only astronaut can save us, lead us to the promised land.
where he'll blow the shit out of thousands of people, but it'll be okay cos they dont really exist. And then they will be written out of history, and even the language will be changed so it appears they never existed at all. And his job will be complete.
Our Hero at work
dylanredefined
Not a house elf a tiger
I never heard anyone else use the word to mean hatred of anyone else but jews .It may be correct to include all the other semtic people but normally they are divided into jews and arabs even when people are on a racist rant
sorry mono you may be right but think you are on a hiding to nothing with this one.
sorry mono you may be right but think you are on a hiding to nothing with this one.
STOP THE PRESSES!!!! MOONO IS CORRECT!!!! In fact I have long said exactly the same thing: "ANTI-SEMITISM" is a terribly misused word. A much better term in my mind is "anti-Jewishness." Astronaut has a point in that the term "anti-Semitism" is now commonly accepted as pertaining solely to Jews. However, it still does not make the definition correct and is a disservice to both Jew and Arab.
Munkeeunit: Astronaut is not casually tossing about the term "racist." Moono has used racist terms in relation to Jews quite a number of times. "Jew boy" and "shyster" are part of his vocabulary.
Belboid [and many others]: It seems as if 80% odf the content in this forum is nastiness in the form of personal insults. I am sad to see you join the ranks in this regard.
Now, as for "never existed," of course "Palestinians" existed. They existed as Arabs though, not "Palestinians." Arabs are not indigenous to the immediate region. The region was Arabised during Islam's push off the peninsular following Muhammed's death. Syria was not Arab land. Egypt certainly was not, neither was Sudan, Mauritania, Libya, Tunisia,etc., etc.
Munkeeunit: Astronaut is not casually tossing about the term "racist." Moono has used racist terms in relation to Jews quite a number of times. "Jew boy" and "shyster" are part of his vocabulary.
Belboid [and many others]: It seems as if 80% odf the content in this forum is nastiness in the form of personal insults. I am sad to see you join the ranks in this regard.
Now, as for "never existed," of course "Palestinians" existed. They existed as Arabs though, not "Palestinians." Arabs are not indigenous to the immediate region. The region was Arabised during Islam's push off the peninsular following Muhammed's death. Syria was not Arab land. Egypt certainly was not, neither was Sudan, Mauritania, Libya, Tunisia,etc., etc.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
So the Palestinians existed in the same sense that Americans (apart from the native Americans), Canadians (apart from the Inuit), Australians (apart from the Aborigines) and New Zealanders (apart from the Maoris) exist. Palestinians have a considerably more legitimate claim to the land - by your measure - than any of these groups, having been living in the land known as Palestine for approximately a millennia longer than any of these non-native impostors.rachamim18 said:
The existence of a distinct Palestinian dialect - different enough from even the closest regional dialects, such as Egyptian, that it takes a while for non-Palestinian arabic speakers to "tune in" and make any sense of it (if they can at all) - suggests that there has been a distinct Palestinian culture and people for quite some time. Did the Kurds cease to exist when their land was split between 4 artificially created nation-states? Do the Bretons not exist because they migrated from Britain a few hundred years ago? Are Afro-Caribbeans a figment of our imagination because they originated in Africa?
You make no sense.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
Would it be fair to say that finally we can state that the Israelis, despite a small existing community, invaded the land that came to be known as Israel?
As the original oppressors in this affair, it would seem reasonable that they stop quoting ridiculous texts trying to avoid the role as the oppressor, and start to put forward some COMPROMISES to solve this conflict? Rather than just trying to pretend to be the injured party.
Meanwhile, if, as they claim, Israel is honestly a SECULAR state, then it needs to move its butt and enshrine some equality rights and move towards a power sharing 1-state solution. A constitution would be a good start. If such a document enshrined Arab rights as an equal with the Israelis, and they start to be able to have families and live, then people may feel less of a need to become suicide bombers.
I accept that neither side really wants this COMPROMISE, but that's just tough. The actual creation of such a state would show a willingness to move forward.
Unfortunately no side wants to COMPROMISE, and so despite my sadness at this fact, the most likely response to such a lack of COMPROMISE, will be an eventual madman who will detonate a nuclear device, and then it will be too late.
As the original oppressors in this affair, it would seem reasonable that they stop quoting ridiculous texts trying to avoid the role as the oppressor, and start to put forward some COMPROMISES to solve this conflict? Rather than just trying to pretend to be the injured party.
Meanwhile, if, as they claim, Israel is honestly a SECULAR state, then it needs to move its butt and enshrine some equality rights and move towards a power sharing 1-state solution. A constitution would be a good start. If such a document enshrined Arab rights as an equal with the Israelis, and they start to be able to have families and live, then people may feel less of a need to become suicide bombers.
I accept that neither side really wants this COMPROMISE, but that's just tough. The actual creation of such a state would show a willingness to move forward.
Unfortunately no side wants to COMPROMISE, and so despite my sadness at this fact, the most likely response to such a lack of COMPROMISE, will be an eventual madman who will detonate a nuclear device, and then it will be too late.
YMU: Your belief that "Palestinians" have a far better claim due to their millenia "on the ground" is completely wrong.
Arabs ruled the land now alternatively known as both "Palestine" and Israel for a grand total of 23 years in the 8th Century of the Common Era [AD]. Even then it was merely part of a Caliphate. As Islam pushed out of Arabia Arabs rarely settled en masse in any one area. Instead Arab men married local women and Arabised tha land. They failed to do so in "Palestine"/Israel due to their very brief hold over it.
In the Middle Ages Muslims did gain a hold now and then over it but that was under non-Arab leadership. It was not until the Turks [again non-Arabs] began their more than 500 year rule over the land [with a deacde off here and there] that Islam became the dominant religion and culture of the land.
In the second half of Turkish rule, that is from about 1750 CE/AD onward, Arabs DID begin to migrate into this land. Heavy migration though did not happen until after 1820. Most in fact happened in the years leading up to WWI [i.e. the same time as Zionist returnees began to pick up momentum].
So you see, you are wrong in this regard.
The propaganda you are repeating about a "distinct 'Palestinian' dialect" has been repeated so much that few people unfamiliar with the region have even questioned it. For Arabic speakers [and non-Arabi natives of the region] it is humorous. The dialect? TWO LETTERS ARE PRONOUNCED SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THAN STANDARD ARABIC. However, even here, it is not a trait unique to those Arabs. It is shared by Arabs in norterhn Egypt, most of Lebanon, and western Syria. It is certainly not "unintelligible" to outsiders.
"Did the Kurds cease to exist when their land was split between 4 nations?" Nope, neither did the Jews when they lived in more than 180 nations. Aside from that unexpected [by you] dose of reality, Kurds have a unique language, cuisine, history, and set of customs...something "Palestinians" do not posses [but Jews do].
"Bretons?" Nope, but Breton culture is nothing at all like the culture of their ancestors. In fact, it would be unrecognisable.
"Afro-Caribbean" is not a distinct cultre, but a distinct set of cultural traits. Do all Afro-Caribbean people share the same langauge? Cusine? Customs? Religion? A person from St. Maarten has little in common with a person from Guadelope or Jamaica aside from African ancestry. their cultures today bear resemblance totheir African forbears but in unique and separate ways. You need a common denominator.
Arabs ruled the land now alternatively known as both "Palestine" and Israel for a grand total of 23 years in the 8th Century of the Common Era [AD]. Even then it was merely part of a Caliphate. As Islam pushed out of Arabia Arabs rarely settled en masse in any one area. Instead Arab men married local women and Arabised tha land. They failed to do so in "Palestine"/Israel due to their very brief hold over it.
In the Middle Ages Muslims did gain a hold now and then over it but that was under non-Arab leadership. It was not until the Turks [again non-Arabs] began their more than 500 year rule over the land [with a deacde off here and there] that Islam became the dominant religion and culture of the land.
In the second half of Turkish rule, that is from about 1750 CE/AD onward, Arabs DID begin to migrate into this land. Heavy migration though did not happen until after 1820. Most in fact happened in the years leading up to WWI [i.e. the same time as Zionist returnees began to pick up momentum].
So you see, you are wrong in this regard.
The propaganda you are repeating about a "distinct 'Palestinian' dialect" has been repeated so much that few people unfamiliar with the region have even questioned it. For Arabic speakers [and non-Arabi natives of the region] it is humorous. The dialect? TWO LETTERS ARE PRONOUNCED SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT THAN STANDARD ARABIC. However, even here, it is not a trait unique to those Arabs. It is shared by Arabs in norterhn Egypt, most of Lebanon, and western Syria. It is certainly not "unintelligible" to outsiders.
"Did the Kurds cease to exist when their land was split between 4 nations?" Nope, neither did the Jews when they lived in more than 180 nations. Aside from that unexpected [by you] dose of reality, Kurds have a unique language, cuisine, history, and set of customs...something "Palestinians" do not posses [but Jews do].
"Bretons?" Nope, but Breton culture is nothing at all like the culture of their ancestors. In fact, it would be unrecognisable.
"Afro-Caribbean" is not a distinct cultre, but a distinct set of cultural traits. Do all Afro-Caribbean people share the same langauge? Cusine? Customs? Religion? A person from St. Maarten has little in common with a person from Guadelope or Jamaica aside from African ancestry. their cultures today bear resemblance totheir African forbears but in unique and separate ways. You need a common denominator.
GMarthews: No it would not be fair. Where have you demonstrated this? You still have not even slightly proved that the "Palestinians" were in fact a distinct people prior to 1948.
YOu know, it is a bit frustrating when you continuously duck facts. Who quotes texts? Israelis? What texts?
"If Israel is a SECULAR state then it needs to move its bud and enshrine equal rights...." NEWSFLASH: It already has done that, one of theonly nationsin the entire region to do so. How about explaining to us how many Arab nations have done so?
Why should it work towards a "One state Solution?" The "Palkestinians" abhor the idea! Only misguided outsiders like yourself persist in that fantasy. the most prominent proponent of your idea [aside from fringe communist groups] is Libyan leader Qadaffi. Good company.
Careful, you are betraying your ignorance. Israel already has a "Constitution." It is known as the "Basic Law." Guess what? It offers the equal rights you talk about. Gee...One would think you would have known this.
Belboid: Being a "Jewish State" has nothing to do with being secular or non-secular, Jewish is a culture aside from being a religion and neither component neccessarily relies on the other. Israel has no official religion. All religions have equal protection with the exception of prostelyzation...it is forbidden as it offends not only Jews but Muslims as well.
YOu know, it is a bit frustrating when you continuously duck facts. Who quotes texts? Israelis? What texts?
"If Israel is a SECULAR state then it needs to move its bud and enshrine equal rights...." NEWSFLASH: It already has done that, one of theonly nationsin the entire region to do so. How about explaining to us how many Arab nations have done so?
Why should it work towards a "One state Solution?" The "Palkestinians" abhor the idea! Only misguided outsiders like yourself persist in that fantasy. the most prominent proponent of your idea [aside from fringe communist groups] is Libyan leader Qadaffi. Good company.
Careful, you are betraying your ignorance. Israel already has a "Constitution." It is known as the "Basic Law." Guess what? It offers the equal rights you talk about. Gee...One would think you would have known this.
Belboid: Being a "Jewish State" has nothing to do with being secular or non-secular, Jewish is a culture aside from being a religion and neither component neccessarily relies on the other. Israel has no official religion. All religions have equal protection with the exception of prostelyzation...it is forbidden as it offends not only Jews but Muslims as well.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Does any culture (if you want to use that word) practice its customs today in the exact same way as its ancestors? No.
What's your point?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
nino_savatte said:
Hopefully he won't be soft enough to attempt to use Jewish religious practice as a proof of a continuance of jewish culture.
Didn't the whole Celt culture/Jewish culture thing get done a while ago on Urban, with Rachamim telling all the Celts they were wrong about and knew little of their own cultures?
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