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give up anti-fascism?

its an interesting article - google of keiron fallow gives no obvious clue of who the writer is. while i would agree with most of the content of the article, the question would have to be how do you achieve his aims?

Searchlight/HNH and most of the unions are not going to abandon Labour any time soon. UAF is a coalition (at its centre at least) of SWP and Socialist Action - SA are very unlikely to support a campaign for anybody against Labour, and the SWP are very unlikely to throw significant resources into campaigning for an electoral grouping that they're not central to (a la respect).

and then there's the criticism "Marching into an area that you do not know and have no continuing interest in and shouting what’s right for that area is alienating and counter-productive" - i appreciate that this will get up people's noses, i certainly would think it was a bit weird if people from derbyshire came en masse to north west london to make a political demonstration - but what's the better alternative? just ignore fascists gaining support in area because established anti-fash campaigns don't know anyone in that town? waiting for the local unions to do something? considering that most people can't commit a lot of time to go somewhere they don't live for an anti-fascist campaign.

while the strategy outlined in the article pretty much matches my views entirely (in theory), sitting back and saying "this is the right strategy" is no good - how to actually achieve it, given the resources that are likely to be available and persuadable, is essential, and i can see why the response from Meszaros of HNH calls it self-indulgent as a result.
 
I've been trying to get the message over that 'anti' or negative messages don't work for a ruddy long time and just get shouted down.

A negative campaign always fails and always will. Until those who are opposed to the ultra right loonies start getting a positive message over, the BNP and they daft pals are laughing all over their evil little faces.
 
I've been trying to get the message over that 'anti' or negative messages don't work for a ruddy long time and just get shouted down.

The problem isn't so much that the campaigns are only negative, but that they are implicitly positive about the wrong things - they mean (but won't usually say it straight out) "stick with the devil you know" - Labour primarily, but even Liberals or the Church of England FFS...
 
yeh there's a certain conservatism about 'mainstream' (ie ineffective) anti-fascism which ignores the revolutionary nature of fascism.
 
its an interesting article - google of keiron fallow gives no obvious clue of who the writer is. while i would agree with most of the content of the article, the question would have to be how do you achieve his aims?

Searchlight/HNH and most of the unions are not going to abandon Labour any time soon. UAF is a coalition (at its centre at least) of SWP and Socialist Action - SA are very unlikely to support a campaign for anybody against Labour, and the SWP are very unlikely to throw significant resources into campaigning for an electoral grouping that they're not central to (a la respect).

and then there's the criticism "Marching into an area that you do not know and have no continuing interest in and shouting what’s right for that area is alienating and counter-productive" - i appreciate that this will get up people's noses, i certainly would think it was a bit weird if people from derbyshire came en masse to north west london to make a political demonstration - but what's the better alternative? just ignore fascists gaining support in area because established anti-fash campaigns don't know anyone in that town? waiting for the local unions to do something? considering that most people can't commit a lot of time to go somewhere they don't live for an anti-fascist campaign.

while the strategy outlined in the article pretty much matches my views entirely (in theory), sitting back and saying "this is the right strategy" is no good - how to actually achieve it, given the resources that are likely to be available and persuadable, is essential, and i can see why the response from Meszaros of HNH calls it self-indulgent as a result.

but THIS " just ignore fascists gaining support in area because established anti-fash campaigns don't know anyone in that town? waiting for the local unions to do something? considering that most people can't commit a lot of time to go somewhere they don't live for an anti-fascist campaign"

is the point .. we NEED a total reorientation of what politics is about .. all this travelling around politics student politics has failed .. it has alienated progressive ideas from the mass of people indeed abandonned this mass of people .. imho for a time all non local solidarity work should be stopped and peole exclusively put effort into creating progressive alternatives exactly where they live
 
This part is what concerns me

What all the current anti-fascist approaches have in common is that they miss the real danger. This doesn’t lie in the BNP taking power, in the possibility of concentration camps or any of the other scare stories we’ve been hearing recently. It lies more immediately in the far right colonising the anti-mainstream vote and developing party loyalty, thereby blocking the development of an independent working-class politics capable of defending our conditions and challenging neoliberalism.

Perhaps that is the whole point of the BNP though, as Britain declines further in the post-imperial period perhaps they service a social function by diverting anger away from class issues.
 
while the strategy outlined in the article pretty much matches my views entirely (in theory), sitting back and saying "this is the right strategy" is no good - how to actually achieve it, given the resources that are likely to be available and persuadable, is essential, and i can see why the response from Meszaros of HNH calls it self-indulgent as a result.

I think you have to decode that response a bit - it bascially says, 'we're not going away, we are right, we are the ones with ther resources, the networks and the contacts and we're going to paint anyone who opposes us in what we're going to pretend is (again!) the key danger period leading up to the general election (i.e getting behind labour) as a danger who can only help the BNP. It confirms the criticisms of the original article if anything. Anything but HnH is 'self indulgent' to HnH.

(OT - What's wrong with hope and hate anyway?)
 
Thought posters here might be interested in this debate on how best to defeat the far right - maybe "anti-fascism" of the kind we've seen lately isn't the best way to go about it?:

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/Anti-fascism-isn-t-working

We need to look at the real causes of the rise in the BNP. The tabloids must take a fair amount of the blame. They print a lot of stuff about immigrants getting benefits and stuff which simply is untrue under our system. And then they have the gall to say 'the disgusting and loathsome BNP'. They probably wouldn't have grown in support so much if it hadn't been for all the lies in the papers...
 
This part is what concerns me



Perhaps that is the whole point of the BNP though, as Britain declines further in the post-imperial period perhaps they service a social function by diverting anger away from class issues.
yes it is what i have been aguing for years ..
 
We need to look at the real causes of the rise in the BNP. The tabloids must take a fair amount of the blame. They print a lot of stuff about immigrants getting benefits and stuff which simply is untrue under our system. And then they have the gall to say 'the disgusting and loathsome BNP'. They probably wouldn't have grown in support so much if it hadn't been for all the lies in the papers...
and so why doe sit work like this? ;)
 
Yes, the fundamental prior question is what social conditions are necessary to produce people ready and willing to believe this stuff? Quickly followed by who is producing these conditions and why?
 
The logical conclusion being never mind the growing social weight of those views (including the massive growth in the BNPs vote and influence) as long as they don't vote BNP (which they increasingly are btw) it doesn't really matter, even if it pulls the default political agenda to the hard right as the mainstream parties manouvere to attract these voters and the consequent racialising of the public political agenda.

Yes, i know the point is that you want to carry on wirth the failed and failing tactics criticised in the orginal article - run around calling people nazis and so on - i think you've only succeeded in demionstrating yet another hole in that approach though.
 
This part is what concerns me

altho there is much of intererst and worth in the article, that bit was the worst part imo, and utterly wrong.

We dont oppose fascism because it might put a block on leftist forces developing a rteal pro-wc organisatin, we oppose it because it is wrong and positively harmful for workers of all races, and creeds. to put it the way the author does leaves a gaping hole for HNH to attack - as Meszaros does. And, sadly, he's right. it also poses a good ol' false dichotomy between 'anti-fascism' and building up a real alternative. A real alternative has always been a part of the fight against fascism, its just that now the alternative is so, so much weaker, and it is therefore and even more important part of the struggle.

But just cos we do need an alternative, that is no reason to say we should dump all 'anti-fascism'. We shouldn't, we need to do both. Because fascism is bad.

On another point re Meszaros' reply - why do people think the BNP have shrunk so far and so fast in keighley?
 
altho there is much of intererst and worth in the article, that bit was the worst part imo, and utterly wrong.

We dont oppose fascism because it might put a block on leftist forces developing a rteal pro-wc organisatin, we oppose it because it is wrong and positively harmful for workers of all races, and creeds. to put it the way the author does leaves a gaping hole for HNH to attack - as Meszaros does. And, sadly, he's right. it also poses a good ol' false dichotomy between 'anti-fascism' and building up a real alternative. A real alternative has always been a part of the fight against fascism, its just that now the alternative is so, so much weaker, and it is therefore and even more important part of the struggle.

But just cos we do need an alternative, that is no reason to say we should dump all 'anti-fascism'. We shouldn't, we need to do both. Because fascism is bad.

On another point re Meszaros' reply - why do people think the BNP have shrunk so far and so fast in keighley?

I don't see why you think that pasage or the article as whole doesn't agree with (even start from) the postion that we oppose fascism because it's bad for the w/c as whole. The point being made in that passage is about correctly identifying the dangers fascism poses at the present time and why - and prioritising a response to that accurate picture of modern society, rather than overblown talk of concentration camps and ethnic cleansing, talk which the article argues has proven to be ineffective in todays conditions - (though not in the 50s-70s.)

And that without this essential updating we're fighting a battle from the 70s whilst the far right have moved into the 21st century - a failing anti-fascism tied to the 70s (and all that entials about the labour party etc) cannot be part of the real alternative anymore. You can't just say anti-fascism is part of the real alternative, when that anti-fascsism supports the status quo - you can go, but that's not real anti-fascism though - but today it is, that's the point. And it's based on fascism being bad for the whole w/c. There's no argument there that it isn't or that there's another priority justifcation for being against anti-fascism.
 
altho there is much of intererst and worth in the article, that bit was the worst part imo, and utterly wrong.

We dont oppose fascism because it might put a block on leftist forces developing a rteal pro-wc organisatin <snip>

Yes we do anyway, amongst other reasons - that in itself is contained in the wider claim that it's bad for the w/c full stop isn't it?
 
Is the concept of 'concentration camps' so anchronistic.

With conflicts in regimes and western military policy still see camps and holding areas where war crimes, crimes against humanity are commited as being just as important and effective as they ever were as counter insurgency.,

Right wing Nationalists and Fascists used such tactic fifteen or so years back in Bosnia & Former Yugoslavia, Russians in Chechnya, Islamicists in Darfur and possibly Algeria and from what can be gathered from reports coming out of Sri Lanka at the moment similar tactics and attrocities to the Tamil population.

The BNP leadership and inner circle were in and highly influenced by the political soldier wing on the far right, much of which is founded upon Strasserism, which if , hypothetically had won the power struggle would have been as equal if not more brutal than Hitler. Hypothetically, if the BNP did come to power do you not think they would use such tactics. Griffins idea of having 'peace lines' is a way of ghettoising Southern Asian Muslims. BNP have supported regimes such as Serbia who have used camps and by murdering the inmates as a form of Ethnic Cleansing.
 
There's bits missing, aren't there? This doesn't make sense:

Nonetheless, if the BNP’s absolute vote is giving pause for concern, it is its trajectory that is truly worrying. The European elections saw its national vote rise by almost a fifth against a background of falling turnout. The small falls in debate on questions to do with immigration, ethnicity and the cultural survival of the western nations’.

In doing so, he can effectively neutralise the issue. If, despite his denial of Holocaust denial, an interviewer presses on regardless, it permits Griffin to turn the tables and ask if he or she wants to talk about politics. The same thing happens on a larger scale electorally.
 
you are very right (slap on hands for website people). It should read

Nonetheless, if the BNP’s absolute vote is giving pause for concern, it is its trajectory that is truly worrying. The European elections saw its national vote rise by almost a fifth against a background of falling turnout. The small falls in its absolute vote in some areas, including the North West and Yorkshire and Humber, where it won its seats, are misleading as they ignore the lower turnout and factors such as the impact of moving from an all-postal ballot to a traditional election. To exaggerate the significance of these absolute figures risks obscuring the party’s continued increase in its vote nationwide and breakthrough successes in County Council level.

Contemporary anti-fascism is represented by two main groups with broadly similar approaches. First, there is Hope not Hate, an umbrella group for unions and individuals within the broad labour movement but open to all. This group was formed by the Searchlight Network. Second, Unite Against Fascism (UAF) is an organisation set up by the Socialist Workers Party (SWP) and National Assembly Against Racism, which also has some union and other backing. For the SWP, UAF is clearly designed to continue in a similar vein to the Anti-Nazi League and is not shy of drawing on the ANL’s reputation and experience.

Both groups concentrate their activities on two main approaches: first, exposing the criminal records, past activities and political beliefs of leading BNP members, candidates and activists; and second, calling on people not to ‘vote Nazi’. Instead electors are urged to vote anyone but BNP (with slight differences in how this is interpreted by each group) in an attempt to raise turnout and block the BNP electorally this way. This approach formed the basis of both groups’ failed interventions into the London mayoral and European elections.

What is wrong with these two approaches? The most obvious objection is that they don’t work. They don’t work today and they haven’t worked for some time. This isn’t to say that they haven’t worked in the past, just that they cannot form the central core of an anti-BNP strategy in today’s conditions.

Exposing the BNP’s various criminal and political records has had no discernible impact. In a country in which more than 40 per cent of all males can expect to have some form of criminal conviction during their lifetime, pointing out to voters in the sort of areas the BNP targets that a candidate has a conviction for assault or theft is likely to have a limited impact. If this were not the case we would today be seeing declining BNP votes and councillors not being returned post-exposure. But we’re not. We’re seeing a steadily rising vote and increasing re-elections.

This tactic has been pursued over the past decade on a scale never seen before. Every section of the media has got in on the game, every candidate has been hammering home their BNP opponents’ convictions. If this strategy was ever to make an impact it would have done so in these almost ideal conditions; instead the far right vote continues to rise. We have to conclude that this approach is ineffective.

Exposing past political views – for instance, BNP leader Nick Griffin’s association with Holocaust denial in the 1990s and earlier – has suffered a similar fate. Griffin has proved adept at moderating his most extreme opinions for the benefit of the media. He will now acknowledge the holocaust as a historical ‘fact’ and, as he put it to the Observer in 2002, he claims that the only reason ‘people like me’ are not always ‘polite and reasonable’ on the subject is ‘frustration with how it is used to prevent any genuine debate on questions to do with immigration, ethnicity and the cultural survival of the western nations’.

In doing so, he can effectively neutralise the issue.
 
This isn't anything new though. I think the person who said this is all good but how are we going to do it, has a point.

I've supported a lot the ideas of the IWCA and this mirrors a lot of those ideas. But nothing much seems to be happening. Anyone can think they are right, and maybe they are, but how can we actually get where we want to, other than posting on the internet.
 
This isn't anything new though. I think the person who said this is all good but how are we going to do it, has a point.

I've supported a lot the ideas of the IWCA and this mirrors a lot of those ideas. But nothing much seems to be happening. Anyone can think they are right, and maybe they are, but how can we actually get where we want to, other than posting on the internet.

That reads like an argument for carrying on with HnH/UAF because they're something, anything, even though you accept the argument that they're doing no good at a very charitable best and actively harmful at worst. Worth posting on the Internet to point that out I'd have thought. Bit like stopping drinking when you're an alkie - first step is to recognise it's a problem.
 
On another point re Meszaros' reply - why do people think the BNP have shrunk so far and so fast in keighley?

When he says :

Keighley went from being a BNP ‘capital’ in 2004 to having no BNP organisation or even candidates by 2007.

Does he mean Bradford Metropolitan District Council? He surely can't mean Keighley town council as their national 'capital can he? Let's have a closer look then. There've been 3 sets of relevant elections, 2004, 2006 and 2007.

2004 -the BNP stood in 2 out of 3 wards, picked up one councillor and a total of 2066 votes. The councillor elected in 2004 lost his seat in by election in early 2006 with 1126 votes, drop of about 500, but then went onto pick up 1493 in the 2006 elections, almost back to 2004 figures.

2006 - stood in 2 out 3 wards, no councillors, total vote of 2577

2007 - stood in 2 out of 3 wards, no councillors, total vote of 1370.

Griffin stood in the GE in 2005 and picked up 9.2% as well - 4,240

So from 2004 as the base point, they've gone up by 600 and then down by 600 (obv it down by a lot more if take it from 2007). Doesn't seem to support the original claim - esp the claim of no candidates and no orgnaisation, not when there was 62 members at the tail end of 2007 and the same number of candidates.

(All the HnH stuff on Keighly refers to the Bradford Metropolitan District Council not the town council btw)
 
they did have two councillors on Keighley Town Council, so it could well be there. Griffin thought he had a good chance of being elected - or at least getting a bloody good vote - when he stood. Since then there presence in the town seems to have shrunk significantly.
 
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